You are a prime example of what turns me off from christianity. The circular, unthinking arguments.

I have to agree with that.  Too many Christians use the "sin" theory, and it drives me nuts.  To say that somebody could kill another person, then take Jesus into their heart and ask God for forgiveness and go to heaven over a person who leads a clean life and hurts nobody is simply....well...illogical.  To say that there is only one path to God (Christianity)is pompous (I guess most of the world is wrong, right?)  And, to think that God has such a narrow view and expectation seems like God must be a pretty petty deity.  Just doesn't make sense. 

I follow an ethical life.  I do not harm others, and I try to help people when I can.  To think that Tookie Williams went to "heaven" and i wouldn't because I didn't go to church and be "cleansed" is laughable.  If heaven is filled with people like that, I'm fine with staying dead.

What's your view about a God of unconditional love, KFC? I have to agree with Jill and Karma. Especially about the upbringing bit. Even if unconditional love is too much for us to consider practical, it is practical for God, because God can do anything. By definition, unconditional love accepts 'what is so', which is primarily a Buddhist teaching. Regarding our own self-acceptance and spiritual development, we have to learn to accept how we feel and how we are - regardless. Just as a three-year-old who dribbles food down its chin, or falls over when learning to walk, is equally as 'perfect' as a twenty-one year old who eats with knife and fork and runs in good stead; so is a person who feels insecure, angry and rebellious equally as 'perfect' as the person who feels secure, strong and enlightened. God loves all His children, for sure. The principle that God must ‘let go’ of His children is the same principle as the loving mother who must let go of her children in order for them to explore, learn and grow. It is true that love does not manipulate, control, cling or coerce. Rather, it provides the beloved with opportunities for growth, creativity and freedom. Love hurts, for sure, as Jesus demonstrated on the cross, and it’s all because of what we freely chose when we lived in the Garden of Eden. There's a Master Plan, and everything is wonderful. No, truly!

Hey Guys,

Seems like I'm in hostile territory here. I've been in many cults and religions. I've studied the scriptures for about 30 years with the last ten being very indepth. I am currently not only teaching but learning as well.

The one thing I try to do is sort fact from opinion. We all have opinions. Opinions are ok but facts are better. Opinions quite often are built on shaky ground. Facts you can build on. That's step one for me. Is this a fact or an opinion? We can get carried away with our own opinions.

Obviously I am a Christian. I know it seems intolerant. I know it's not popular. But Jesus lost his life and John the Baptist lost his head for preaching/teaching the gospel. That's what I'm doing and I do feel hostility no matter how kind I am. It doesn't matter. The gospel offends. Case in point is Jill. When I gave her scripture to show answer her comments she flipped on me. I will not do that again. If someone doesn't want it. I don't give it. I'm not that type of Christian.

This is not new to me. I understand. But please understand where I'm coming from. If I saw you walking down the street about to fall into a open sewer hole and just waved and said "Have a nice day." Would that be kind? Because I didn't want to offend....I said nothing? Is that what I should do?

Now if I screamed at you and said...."Watch out...stop..you're going down..." It doesn't sound as nice to your ears, but it's going to save your life or at least keep you from harm.

That's what you're hearing from me. You're hearing screaming and it's unpleasant. I know that. I've been there. While I'm trying to save you from harm....you see me as bossy (at best).

All I can do is watch you after that. If you listen ok. If not. I warned you. That's what I see. I see the hole.

I have seen a demon possessed person in real life. I know there is a spirit world. I am very convinced of this. My goal is to help take as many out of the grip of Satan as I can. What other motive do I have? I'm not a religionist. I have no denomination I push. I have the Love of God in me for the lost and hurting. Satan's goal is to keep people away from God. It's called spiritual warfare. He's very busy throwing obstacles in our way.

I am just a beggar that found some bread trying to help the other beggers find food. And I'm trying my hardest not to quote scripture here...but Jesus did say that he has the food (spiritual) we need.

What's your view about a God of unconditional love, KFC?

Well I think you gave an example of it....Christ stretched his arms on the cross and showed us what this love looked like. He's the perfect example. He loved us so much that he died for us. There is no greater love than when one dies for another. No conditions met. Love is an action word...not an emotion. It's a choice. He chose to love us. Now it's our choice. Do we belive in HIS Love or not? What is our response to it? Indifference? Scorn? Unbelief? Thankfulness? Gratefulness? It's up to us. That's why it's said he died for those who would believe.

But I believe God loves us too much to leave us the way we are. Have you ever seen a changed person as a result of finding God? Someone who was me centered, turn into a God centered person? That's the touch of God. I've just recently saw a couple come to Christ after years of being agnostic. They met Christ and the change is unbelievable.

I don't believe any parent loves that way. Brings us into the world and then walks away. No we are always here for our children as God is for us. Yes we make mistakes and God lets us. But I notice he only lets me go so far before he reaches down and touches me on the shoulder. I do the same with my kids.

Even tho we are not faithful....God is always faithful. That's what unconditional love is all about.

The gospel offends. Case in point is Jill. When I gave her scripture to show answer her comments she flipped on me.

Please point out how I flipped on you. I just pointed out to you that for someone who doesn't believe that the bible is the word of God, pointing out scripture isn't going to "answer" anything. You are so entrenched in your religion that you can't take an objective look at things you say and see how they might be condescending. Questions like "have you ever been wrong?" I answered that question btw and you didn't.

I understand that your religion is based on evangelizing but the thing is, nonchristians can only take being told how wrong they are and where it says in the bible they are wrong for so long until they have to say please stop.

You claim I "flipped" on you for having a differing opinion. I feel you badgered me because I am not christian. You can excuse it with your own beliefs all you want. I still feel like it is intolerant, condescending behavior. I am not offended by the gospel, only by how it is used.

Seems like I'm in hostile territory here

No need to feel hostility KFC, it’s healthy to share views. Karma and Jill made some valid points.

The one thing I try to do is sort fact from opinion. We all have opinions. Opinions are ok but facts are better. Opinions quite often are built on shaky ground. Facts you can build on. That's step one for me. Is this a fact or an opinion? We can get carried away with our own opinions.

I trust you accept that the things you say and believe are your own opinions and views, and not everyone will agree with you. For example, the view that everyone who isn't a Christian will fall into a "hole" is exclusively a Christian fundamentalist opinion, and non-Christians will naturally see things differently, and might consider the “hole” view misguided. People’s opinions about the Bible differ, and non-Christians aren't bound to the Bible’s point of view in the first place.

Regarding deeper issues of life and existence, we all have different points of view, and whether these views or opinions are aligned with ‘the Truth’ or not is something we need to discern for ourself. Life is a big adventure and we need to keep exploring it with an open mind.

If a spaceman landed on earth at a time when humanity thought the world was flat, and shared his view that the world is actually “round”, then the flat-earthers might consider him misguided, and would probably stick to their view that the world is flat. The spaceman, however, confident in his knowledge, would conclude that the flat-earthers had room for growth, and that they were “right” to stick to their view, because that’s ‘where they’re at’, and they don’t know any better.

Whilst on our spiritual journey we’re all at different stages of growth, and we view the world and our place in the bigger picture differently. The twenty-one year old, in the analogy in the other post, would hold a different model of the world to the three-year old, for example, and even though the latter’s views would be valid in context with ‘where he’s at’, the former’s model of the world would be more enlightened.

Extreme religious fundamentalism, in my view, is like the flat-earther’s perspective. Its opinions about the age of the earth, what happens after death, and concepts about God, (vengeful, tyrannical and jealous) etc, are misguided. But that’s just my point of view, and I have great respect for fundies. Their ladder is against the right wall, and I honestly want to give them a big hug and say “It’s okay - God loves everyone!”

In context with the view that an all-powerful God created everything, that we are loved by Him, and that there’s more to life than this harsh little existence on earth, it follows that joy, peace and security is our true heritage. Feelings of insecurity, fear or anger etc., or friction, intolerance and suffocation, indicate room for spiritual growth. From within this context, by definition, positive views and attitudes will be more aligned with ‘the Truth’ than negative ones.

How much does the view of an all-loving God correspond with ‘What Is So’? I believe that our inner-wisdom and intuition knows a little secret. When our conscious mind is ready, we’ll become more aware of this secret, which discloses a great glimpse of the Truth.

A spaceman knows that the earth is round. In a similar way I believe that many people already know the little secret in the soul. As a whole, we’re living in flat-earth times, spiritually speaking, but there’s room for growth, and that's good news in my view.

what happens after death

(I was reffering to hell and damnation for non-Christrians, by the way)

People’s opinions about the Bible differ, and non-Christians aren't bound to the Bible’s point of view in the first place.

This is true. A non Christian could give two hoots about what the bible says. I know that. The people I've met that have the most to say against scripture are the ones that haven't really looked at it. Some have not even opened up the book to begin with. Yet they are very adament it's garbage. Ok. I'm not going to argue that. What can I say?

Its opinions about the age of the earth, what happens after death, and concepts about God, (vengeful, tyrannical and jealous) etc, are misguided

Here I would say I would be basing what I believe on fact....not what I believe per se. If Jesus is who he said he was.....and there are many eyewitness accounts from both sides of the fence.....and he said He was the truth I'm bound to either believe him or not. I chose based on facts to believe what he says. If he says that HE is the only way and he proved himself to those around him then I believe it.

I tend to be a very skeptical person. I don't believe things very easily cuz I've been in all these religious groups already and I've learned a whole lot from that. They all think they have the answers. I'm not saying I do....I'm just saying I know who does. Big difference.

Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or Lord. He either deceived us or is deity. We have to determine this first. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that he is Lord. That's the foundation I stand on. Then I go from there. But I looked at the evidence first. I don't believe in blind faith. Everything in scripture is bound by two or three witnesses.....everything. That's what I like. There's a book out that's called Evidence Demands a Verdict. The problem is not too many want to take the time to look at the evidence. Because they really don't want to know.

I hear people say all the time....I believe this....I believe that.....well what are they basing their belief on? When push comes to shove many don't know. Is it theories which change all the time? Someone else's opinion? Whoever has the cleverest argument? What do you base your belief on?

If I believe (and I do) that Christ is the rock (bedrock) then I would say it's a sure foundation and everything else is sinking sand. I've been there as well....I jumped over let's say. I believe he's the cornerstone, the capstone and the stumbling stone. And I totally agree with what you said about the growth process. I also believe the older ones (spiritually) should help the babies grow. I believe that's what God has called me to do. Of course I completely understand that force feeding doesn't work.

But just as we have a physical body that needs nourishment so we have a soul too that needs to be fed. I just happen to believe that Christ who said he was the bread of life and was born in Bethlehem which literally means...House of Bread is where we go for that nourishment.

I was reffering to hell and damnation for non-Christrians, by the way)

Do you not believe in Hell? Where do you think we go after death? What do you base this opinion on? There's a book out there I'm going to get only cuz I like the title...it's called...."One Minute After you Die." Interesting title. As you asserted I do believe the "hole" is Hell and I base it on what Jesus taught cuz I believe he existed and he spoke truth.

Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or Lord. He either deceived us or is deity. We have to determine this first. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that he is Lord. That's the foundation I stand on.

If I believe (and I do) that Christ is the rock (bedrock) then I would say it's a sure foundation and everything else is sinking sand. I've been there as well....I jumped over let's say. I believe he's the cornerstone, the capstone and the stumbling stone. And I totally agree with what you said about the growth process. I also believe the older ones (spiritually) should help the babies grow. I believe that's what God has called me to do. Of course I completely understand that force feeding doesn't work.

I completely agree with all this. I believe in the divinity of Jesus, and I believe that He was who He said He was. Christ is the rock and foundation, because Christ is God, and God is the ultimate foundation. I wouldn’t say I believe it based on evidence, however. It was so long ago there isn’t really any proper evidence. I believe it because Jesus’ teachings make sense to me, and He clearly came to earth for a profound purpose with a deep message to share.

Do you not believe in Hell? Where do you think we go after death?

We are spiritual beings on an endless journey. When we die, we pass over to the Heavenly realm. That is our eternal abode. But the quality of our inner-experience in the afterlife is determined by the amount of spiritual wealth we have accumulated on our journey so far. People who have deliberately caused much evil or corruption on earth will experience an inner feeling of darkness and guilt when they arrive in Heaven. They will have created a hell of their own making. With the bigger picture opened up to them, they will become aware of the consequences of their actions to others and to their own soul. Their inner-burden will be painful.

We reap exactly what we sow, and nobody can escape the law of karma. Even though some people might seem to get away with being evil or corrupt in this life, rest assured they will have to pay off their karmic debts at another time.

It is difficult to balance out negative karma in Heaven, because the challenges don't exist there. Evil souls are therefore often forced to incarnate back to earth in an attempt to `burn off' their negative karma. Maybe a paedophile will have to experience abuse as a child, firsthand, for example, in order to balance out their karma.

It is true that the quickest way to advance spiritually and to cultivate positive karma, is to love, and to adhere to principles of goodwill, forgiveness and integrity. For the vast majority of souls, death is a highly positive experience. It is like being released from a dark, stuffy room, walking into a breathtaking world of freedom, beauty and light. Whilst in Heaven, we retain our individuality, live full lives in the spirit world, and exist for all eternity. At Home we are at our most alive and vibrant.

We freely choose to incarnate on physical planes such as earth as many times as we like, in order to face challenges and trials which don't exist in Paradise. (A good way to interpret the nature of our short lives on earth is to perceive them as quick trips to the gym, which advance spiritual strength and growth.) From our eternal perspective in Heaven, a lifetime on earth is like a blink of an eye. We see that negative experiences turn into positive learning, and in our state of infinite security we choose grim lifetimes on earth in order to attain a higher good.

The hardships and tribulations that we face on earth are of our own choosing, not God's. For each trip to earth, we choose our own bodies, we choose the timing of our incarnation, we choose the conditions of our upbringing and the challenges we face. The greater the physical challenge, the greater potential for spiritual advancement. Hence, disabled bodies, for example, are actually blessings in disguise.

Whilst clothed in this human body, our earthly minds are deliberately 'veiled' from the Truth in order for our soul to experience challenges of a deeper kind. (i.e. concepts such as "fear", "loneliness", "pain", "hatred", "ugliness", "insecurity", or "doubt" etc. are incoherent in Heaven. They can only be experienced in realms such as earth-life. Our deeper goal is to rise above them and conquer them from within. If we were always aware of the whole Truth, then the challenges would cease to be).

What do you base your belief on?

I’m psychic, believe it or not. This consciousness – this knowing – comes from beyond me, and I don’t expect this to cut any mustard with other people anyway. I had a big discussion about it on JU about a year ago, and I’m not going to labour it all again. There are also hundreds of books out there written by other psychics, some of which are frauds, others of which are genuine, (you can tell by their integrity, passion, and clarity), which describe the exact same model of the world that I’ve just described here.

Anyway, this is the way it is. I’m just describing my point of view, a bit like the spaceman who told the flat-earthers the world is round. All I can do is be true to myself and to God. Whether it strikes a chord or not, or whether it makes any sense, depends on whether you’re ready. If not, or if you don't believe me, then no harm. It’s just another point of view, after all.

I see KFC again refuses to confront anything that I said in response to things said about me. I guess that is what I expected. Too bad though.

Time to get back to talking about ID, Jill? Steven must be fuming, especially with my mumbo jumbo

and where is KFC?

Time to get back to talking about ID, Jill?

I suggest that a while back before being accused of "flipping" on KFC. Don't worry, I'm done on this thread and already made my apologies to stevendedalus.

I'm here. But for some reason only can see the last response which is your's Andy #101. So I can't comment on whatever was previously written.

I was reading today about Abraham. How God took his good as dead body and brought an heir through him and his barren wife. Paul talks about this in Romans. God gave Abraham the promise when he was 75 that He would make him a great nation. The only problem was he and his wife were barren. And then to really make a statement God waited another 24 years before this would happen. In other words...a miracle happened.

Only God can take nothing and make something. This is what it all comes down to. When you unpeel all the layers of evolution it comes down to ex nihilo nil....out of nothing comes nothing. You cannot get something from nothing unless you're God. And when you look at the Jews today....it all goes back to a 100 year old Man with his 90 year old wife. Out of nothing came a Nation. Only by the hand of God can this happen. This is just another picture of what God can do.

I think Mrs. Darwin (Emma) really carried the brains in the family cuz she believed in God and not in her husband's theory.

I think Mrs. Darwin (Emma) really carried the brains in the family cuz she believed in God and not in her husband's theory.

Even though evolution might contradict a literal interpretation of Genesis, it doesn't have to contradict Christian belief. But like I said before, if you're at peace with your beliefs then stick with them KFC. It's obviously where you're meant to be. I don't think my other post would have been compatible with your present scope, so no loss.

When you unpeel all the layers of evolution it comes down to ex nihilo nil....out of nothing comes nothing.

When we unpeel all layers of evolution, we arrive at the same place, whether we believe in 7-day Creation or billions of years. In other words, we can either believe that we exist for a higher purpose, or we can believe that we're cosmic accidents. From the point of view of the intellect, we can leave the ultimate mysteries as sacred, because there's no proof either way. But from the point of view of the heart, (soul / spirit / psyche), it’s possible to know the Truth, which sets us free. Rest assured, heightened spiritual awareness is the next phase of human evolution. It’s only a matter of time before atheism becomes an antiquated philosophy. That's not a statement of arrogance. Only, we cannot escape spiritual growth.

When we unpeel all layers of evolution, we arrive at the same place, whether we believe in 7-day Creation or billions of years. In other words, we can either believe that we exist for a higher purpose, or we can believe that we're cosmic accidents. From the point of view of the intellect, we can leave the ultimate mysteries as sacred, because there's no proof either way. But from the point of view of the heart, (soul / spirit / psyche), it’s possible to know the Truth, which sets us free. Rest assured, heightened spiritual awareness is the next phase of human evolution. It’s only a matter of time before atheism becomes an antiquated philosophy. That's not a statement of arrogance. Only, we cannot escape spiritual growth.

I agree with this.....I think.

I think our intellect can get in the way to God. We depend on ourselves and not Him. Althought it's not mutually exclusive. Many intellects in History were Godly men.

Given your two examples of belief....I think even if I knew nothing....it would be safer to believe in God for a higher purpose than the other. Let's just say....err on the side of caution. Of course I believe as Jesus said...that we can know on this side of eternity the truth. We don't have to wait. But I agree that we see thru the glass darkly. It won't become all clear on this side of eternity. We can only go by what has been given us.