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Dichotomy: Evolution & ID
Both Depend on Transcendence
Published on December 22, 2005 By stevendedalus In Philosophy

It is perplexing as to why there is this dichotomy between evolution and intelligent design when in reality it is a simple matter of splitting hairs of what is actually observed and what is transcendent. For Darwin deduced from the complexity of evolving life forms an inherent natural selection of intentionality. That is, from a cell there may be underlying it intentionality of inexistent or nebulous other forms which may indeed transcend itself into another material object and become existent. On the lower levels it may appear to be accidental or incidental, yet in actuality there is the implication of a pre-condition intentionality that if such an “accident” occurs, a given transition or some incidental function will arise. If a wolf is in the “making” yet does not contain intentional instincts of a wolf, it is not a wolf but an incompetent mammal that will inevitably fall by the wayside. If early man is equipped with instinct only, he is not ready for manhood and eventually will give way to another intentionality that has modified that instinct to intuition and the first stage of thinking. Thinking, that is, that which intrudes upon common consciousness by questioning and reflecting on intuition — however crude — is what makes one human. The “designer” on the other hand, would prefer the “intrusion” be a divine spark of energy.

The dichotomy, then, springs from the manner in which “design” is perceived. Both views admit to the concept but one, predicated on materialism, is from the perspective of inherent intentionality toward transcendence; hijacked by creationists, the other — predicated on theism, rather than deism — is from the perspective transcending the material matrix to a divine, but active consciousness free of material baggage. The non-religious ID intentionality transcends only to the inner dimension whereby God, demiurge or gods manipulate the natural selection within viewable creation — “God exists in the understanding” [Anselm]. Actual understanding, not a conditional intentionality that there be unicorns.

In other words, natural selection, the demiurge, or God are all transcendent “objects” derived from an intrusive consciousness.

Copyright © 2005 Richard R. Kennedy All rights reserved. Revised: December 22, 2005.

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Comments (Page 6)
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76
JillUser
on Jan 16, 2006
A cell in your brain isn't intelligent


Again that depends on what you consider the definition of "intelligent". According to the January 2006 Discover magazine, scientists have found single brain cells that can think. They think that every idea leaves its own trace on cells.

I always get discouraged in these debates because it seems to be divided into the "it happened exactly the way the bible says it did" or the "science needs to prove everything" camps. I commend those who appreciate the possibilities that lie inbetween. I honostly think that the people who state that they "know" everything know the least.

I think a little humility goes a long way in the pursuit of the answers to life's questions.
77
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 16, 2006
always get discouraged in these debates because it seems to be divided into the "it happened exactly the way the bible says it did"


Well until I can find that Science has disproven somthing in scripture than I might agree with you. But everytime Science seems to make a big discovery....guess what? It was already in the scriptures to begin with. For instance:

It is He that sits upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.......Isa 40:22

This was written more than 2000 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.....or

He stretches out the north over the empty place and hangs the earth upon nothing. Job 26:7

Perhaps Andy you know when this scientific discovery was made? Job is thought to be the first bible book written, written most likely around 1800 BC which is almost 4 thousand years ago. I know for certain the discovery of the earth hanging on nothing was made many years after that.

My Son who is alot smarter than I is a Science Researcher going for his Ph.D in Neuro Science. He's absoultely convinced from the evidence that we have that there is no reason NOT to believe in the scriptures even when it comes to Science.

Heck even Eve being made from Adam's rib...smacks of some sort of cloning thing going on. When our bodies go into the ground...so goes our DNA. Hmmmm sounds sort of like the creation story.

That's why the ID theory is such an issue today.
78
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 16, 2006
always get discouraged in these debates because it seems to be divided into the "it happened exactly the way the bible says it did"


Well until I can find that Science has disproven somthing in scripture than I might agree with you. But everytime Science seems to make a big discovery....guess what? It was already in the scriptures to begin with. For instance:

It is He that sits upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.......Isa 40:22

This was written more than 2000 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.....or

He stretches out the north over the empty place and hangs the earth upon nothing. Job 26:7

Perhaps Andy you know when this scientific discovery was made? Job is thought to be the first bible book written, written most likely around 1800 BC which is almost 4 thousand years ago. I know for certain the discovery of the earth hanging on nothing was made many years after that.

My Son who is alot smarter than I is a Science Researcher going for his Ph.D in Neuro Science. He's absoultely convinced from the evidence that we have that there is no reason NOT to believe in the scriptures even when it comes to Science.

Heck even Eve being made from Adam's rib...smacks of some sort of cloning thing going on. When our bodies go into the ground...so goes our DNA. Hmmmm sounds sort of like the creation story.

That's why the ID theory is such an issue today.
79
stevendedalus
on Jan 17, 2006
The fact remains that ID is nothing new, except in the ulterior motive that we return to the pre-science days and accept God is in full control. Tne cosmos is too complex to think that it was sheer chance, in light of the semblance of some order which, however, allows for freakish accidents that some are motivated to perceive as convoluted intelligence.
80
AndyBaker
on Jan 17, 2006
scientists have found single brain cells that can think. They think that every idea leaves its own trace on cells.


That's an interesting one. I believe that consciousness is the driving force over matter, rather than the other way round. This runs contrary to a materialistic view of life, but I'm sure more evidence will accumulate over time. It's this principle which enables spiritual people, or those who pray or meditate, to retain a sense of inner peace regardless of materialistic conditions. I think that what lies within us is more important than the physical. Spiritual wealth (or love) is more important than material wealth, and things like forgiveness, humility, compassion etc. take inner muscle to exercise, especially if we're being treated unfairly. It's all a matter of consciousness, which is akin to "spirit", and this is where real strength lies.

He's absoultely convinced from the evidence that we have that there is no reason NOT to believe in the scriptures even when it comes to Science.


I agree with you, KFC, but maybe for different reasons to yours. I don't see the Bible as a science book. I think it's centered more around deeper spiritual matters than science of a materialstic kind. But I don't have a problem with people who believe that it's to be read as a science book.

Everytime Science seems to make a big discovery....guess what? It was already in the scriptures to begin with


I'm not sure about that. 6,000 years ago was the agricultural age, not the beginning of the universe. But I admire your faith, and I don't think you should change it if you're at peace with it. If more Christians had a warm and happy heart like you KFC, Christianity would have a much better name, for sure.
81
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 17, 2006

I agree with you, KFC, but maybe for different reasons to yours. I don't see the Bible as a science book. I think it's centered more around deeper spiritual matters than science of a materialstic kind. But I don't have a problem with people who believe that it's to be read as a science book.


Well Andy....I agree with you here. I'm not saying it's a Science book just that there's science in the book!! Just like there's history in the book as well.

If you get a chance....read Psalm 35. John Adams begged everyone to read that Psalm especially, meditate and pray over it so the British would be defeated.

And you've got me Andy....I'm a young earth believer as you guessed....or did we talk about this somewhere else.....?
82
AndyBaker
on Jan 18, 2006
I'm a young earth believer as you guessed....or did we talk about this somewhere else.....?


Hmmm, I wonder?

I read Psalm 35, and you’re right, it does seem rather war orientated. What was the point you were trying to make, by the way? I’m British, so I’d be “enemy” if you placed it in context with Adam’s statement.

In light of this, where do you think Jesus’ words in Luke 6.27 fit in with such war-like Biblical verses? “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27).

He also said, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you." (Matthew 5.38)

I personally believe that the message of unconditional love overrides the old law of “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” For Jesus himself said “I didn’t come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not here to destroy, but to fulfil.”, (or something like that, I haven’t got the verse at hand.)
83
JillUser
on Jan 18, 2006
Why is it any thread that discusses anything to do with religion devolves into a verse quoting fest? KFC and Andy, you have mutual admiration and that is a beautiful thing. All the verse quoting in the world is never going to convince me of the "young Earth" story of the bible.

we return to the pre-science days and accept God is in full control.


Don't include me in that "we". I will go as far as to say that I can accept that God (our creator) set the system up and put things in motion. I don't believe that God is in total control of every little thing going on on Earth or in the universe.
84
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 18, 2006
I don't believe that God is in total control of every little thing going on on Earth or in the universe


Well Jill that's only because you have not had an encounter with him. Everyone that has...has a changed life as evidence. I'm sure you must know people like that. Look around. Most likely you may even have a family member somewhere that can share their story with you.

I'm glad you believe there is a God but even the demons believe and tremble. If God is not in control...what kind of a God is he? I could give you story after story....but unless he opens your eyes to him...I agree...you will never believe.

Your words..."I don't believe" are an interesting choice of words. Have you ever been wrong before?


I read Psalm 35, and you’re right, it does seem rather war orientated. What was the point you were trying to make, by the way? I’m British, so I’d be “enemy” if you placed it in context with Adam’s statement.


Only that I was talking science and history and brought this up....just outside info I guess. I guess you could call it trivia. I was listening to David Barton (a historian) talk on America's founding fathers and how they would all be considered Politically Incorrect by today's standards.

I have an English background as well....and I hope you didn't take that as an attack on your heritage...cuz I had no idea. And you are far from the enemy.

I'll get back on the rest later....no time.

KFC
85
JillUser
on Jan 19, 2006
Have you ever been wrong before?


Yes. Have you?

I'm glad you believe there is a God but even the demons believe and tremble


I know many a demon who hides behind the church. I don't tremble btw. I am a loving, caring person who doesn't harm others. If God is a loving, forgiving father, then I see know way he would punish me for the way I live my life.

I respect you for having your beliefs and living accordingly. You obviously have no respect for mine or feel there is a possibility that you don't have all the answers because that is part of your religion. That's fine. I just don't have any interest in that kind of one sided conversation.

If God is not in control...what kind of a God is he?


I didn't say God wasn't in control. I said he wasn't in total control of every little thing. Are you not a parent if anything happens with your child that you didn't have total control of? You give birth, nurture and care for your child best you can and hope that they make good decisions and that people around them don't harm them and that catastrophies, natural or manmade don't happen to them.

Parents don't hear every word their child utters. They don't have control of every minute of every day. Matter of fact, once the child is an adult, the parent has very little control.

Maybe God gave birth to our world, prepared it in every way he could, then sent us on our own.

BTW, the only difference in my "belief" and your "faith" is that I admit that I don't know for sure. You might believe you have all the answers but I think maybe your upbringing, i.e. predisposition to christianity, and the way you interpret things in your life that you say was an encounter with God lead you to christianity.

I know very few christians who feel they have encountered God. They explain things they don't have answers for as miracles, they were "born into" their religion, or they see religion as an insurance policy. Kind of "hey, what do I have to lose?"

You were right on one thing, nothing you say, none of your stories will make me believe. I have been listening to stories, attending church services and seeking answers on my own all my life. I've studied a lot of religions and find compelling things about many of them and don't buy into any of them completely.
86
JillUser
on Jan 19, 2006
I feel the need to apologize stevendadelus. You put a very though provoking blog under philosophy and I helped turn it into an arguement about christianity. I tend to feel defensive in discussions that involve God because as soon as I offer a nonchristian point of you it tends to get jumped all over.

Maybe I'm just hormonal today;)

Anyway, I don't think my last comment added much to the subject you put forth. I just felt the need to address what KFC had said. If you want to delete anything I said, I understand. I'm done discussing my beliefs on here. I hope it gets back to Evolution & ID because it is a very interesting subject.
87
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 19, 2006
I respect you for having your beliefs and living accordingly. You obviously have no respect for mine or feel there is a possibility that you don't have all the answers because that is part of your religion. That's fine. I just don't have any interest in that kind of one sided conversation.


Why do you say this? Why do you think I have no respect? Cuz I have a different opinion? I'm sorry if I offended you. You might be surprised to learn that the Gospel does offend by its very nature. I only answered your comments.


I'll be the first one to admit I don't have all the answers. I never said I did. I just know who does. It isn't me. It's Jesus!! I'm learning everyday and the more I learn the closer I get to HIM.

I've been in lots of religions....it's not about religion...it's about relationship anyhow. I don't let anyone in my house I don't know. It's the same with God. If we don't have a relationship with him. He's not going to let us into HIS house either.

I am a loving, caring person who doesn't harm others. If God is a loving, forgiving father, then I see know way he would punish me for the way I live my life.


How good is good enough? The same thing you are counting on.....a just God wouldn't do me harm etc.....is the same thing that is going to be the downfall of people with such thinking. God is a just God as well as a loving God. His judgments are just. He has to deal with the sinful.

We all sin. The punishment for sin is death. Sin is not allowed to be in heaven next to a Holy God. We are dirty with sin. The only way to come into his presence is to be cleansed. That's what the whole gospel is about. Being cleansed in God's sight. The only way that can happen is to accept what was done for us on the cross. So when God looks at us he sees the cleansing blood of Christ on us. Just like the moveie the "Ten Commandments." The blood over the doors saved the people. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

I would just like to urge you not to give up seeking.
88
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 19, 2006
I respect you for having your beliefs and living accordingly. You obviously have no respect for mine or feel there is a possibility that you don't have all the answers because that is part of your religion. That's fine. I just don't have any interest in that kind of one sided conversation.


Why do you say this? Why do you think I have no respect? Cuz I have a different opinion? I'm sorry if I offended you. You might be surprised to learn that the Gospel does offend by its very nature. I only answered your comments.


I'll be the first one to admit I don't have all the answers. I never said I did. I just know who does. It isn't me. It's Jesus!! I'm learning everyday and the more I learn the closer I get to HIM.

I've been in lots of religions....it's not about religion...it's about relationship anyhow. I don't let anyone in my house I don't know. It's the same with God. If we don't have a relationship with him. He's not going to let us into HIS house either.

I am a loving, caring person who doesn't harm others. If God is a loving, forgiving father, then I see know way he would punish me for the way I live my life.


How good is good enough? The same thing you are counting on.....a just God wouldn't do me harm etc.....is the same thing that is going to be the downfall of people with such thinking. God is a just God as well as a loving God. His judgments are just. He has to deal with the sinful.

We all sin. The punishment for sin is death. Sin is not allowed to be in heaven next to a Holy God. We are dirty with sin. The only way to come into his presence is to be cleansed. That's what the whole gospel is about. Being cleansed in God's sight. The only way that can happen is to accept what was done for us on the cross. So when God looks at us he sees the cleansing blood of Christ on us. Just like the moveie the "Ten Commandments." The blood over the doors saved the people. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

I would just like to urge you not to give up seeking.
89
KFC Kickin For Christ
on Jan 19, 2006
I respect you for having your beliefs and living accordingly. You obviously have no respect for mine or feel there is a possibility that you don't have all the answers because that is part of your religion. That's fine. I just don't have any interest in that kind of one sided conversation.


Why do you say this? Why do you think I have no respect? Cuz I have a different opinion? I'm sorry if I offended you. You might be surprised to learn that the Gospel does offend by its very nature. I only answered your comments.


I'll be the first one to admit I don't have all the answers. I never said I did. I just know who does. It isn't me. It's Jesus!! I'm learning everyday and the more I learn the closer I get to HIM.

I've been in lots of religions....it's not about religion...it's about relationship anyhow. I don't let anyone in my house I don't know. It's the same with God. If we don't have a relationship with him. He's not going to let us into HIS house either.

I am a loving, caring person who doesn't harm others. If God is a loving, forgiving father, then I see know way he would punish me for the way I live my life.


How good is good enough? The same thing you are counting on.....a just God wouldn't do me harm etc.....is the same thing that is going to be the downfall of people with such thinking. God is a just God as well as a loving God. His judgments are just. He has to deal with the sinful.

We all sin. The punishment for sin is death. Sin is not allowed to be in heaven next to a Holy God. We are dirty with sin. The only way to come into his presence is to be cleansed. That's what the whole gospel is about. Being cleansed in God's sight. The only way that can happen is to accept what was done for us on the cross. So when God looks at us he sees the cleansing blood of Christ on us. Just like the moveie the "Ten Commandments." The blood over the doors saved the people. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

I would just like to urge you not to give up seeking.
90
JillUser
on Jan 19, 2006
would just like to urge you not to give up seeking.


I won't ever stop seeking answers. You are a prime example of what turns me off from christianity. The circular, unthinking arguments. You sound exactly like a friend who was catholic until she realized she was brain washed, like the Jehovah's witnesses who used to come by and give me their interpretation of the bible.

The whole "cleansing blood" thing never made any sense to me either. PLEASE don't take that as a request for you to explain it to me!! Many have tried. I have thought on it over and over. I makes no sense and won't make sense short of an "encounter with God".
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