So, grabbing the theories back from the extremes, you are saying they are not mutually exclusive?  That indeed they each address a piece of the puzzle and are therefore complimentary?

I'll go along with that, given the lack of cold hard facts.

Yes, in a sense,you can conclude that.

Evolution is intelligent design. There's a perfectly good reason why God chose to create the cosmos and life via a process of evolution. (Although, strictly speaking, I don't think that it was 'choice' at all. After all, by definition, an infinite Wisdom would carry out only the highest good, as in an optimum route.) Our task is to work out what that perfectly good reason might be. Due to our limited, finite perspective, in order to comprehend even a glimpse of God's purposes, we will have to think 'outside the box', so to speak.

ya I believe in evolution.....God said it.....and BANG....it happened. That's about as far as i go.

ya I believe in evolution.....God said it.....and BANG....it happened. That's about as far as i go

I like that, and I completely agree with you. It's a simple point of view, which I believe is wholly aligned with God's point of view. God's Mind transcends space and time, which means that from a 'God's eye perspective' of the universe, that's exactly how it happened - God said it ... and BANG, God created all of it - all of this - in the blink of an eye; in one holy instant, just as the creationists have said. And ... it came about through a process of evolution, taking billions of years, just as the evolutionists claim.

Both creationists and evolutionists are right. It just depends on which way you look at it.

“Do not forget one thing, my dear friends. There is no difference in the Lord’s sight between one day and a thousand years; to Him the two are the same.” - Peter 3.8

it came about through a process of evolution, taking billions of years, just as the evolutionists claim.

I was right with ya....until this Andy. This I draw the line. If God said it took a day....it took a day. Went to the original Hebrew on this one. There is another word for day but this word here in Genesis means a 24 hour day.

Both creationists and evolutionists are right. It just depends on which way you look at it.

You are such a diplomat.....LOL.....that I do like about you. But they can't both be. One says young earth less than 10,000 years old and the other says billions of years old. There's no jelling this together.

Do not forget one thing, my dear friends. There is no difference in the Lord’s sight between one day and a thousand years; to Him the two are the same.” - Peter 3.8

In context this has to do with the delay of His return. What you are quoting doesn't seem right. What are you reading? One day is AS a thousand years not that they are the same thing.

God doesn't view time as we do and he's slow in coming back cuz he's desiring that more will come to repentence. From his viewpoint it's not that long of a time period. Once he does come back it's too late and he's giving every opportunity.

Both creationists and evolutionists are right. It just depends on which way you look at it.

You are such a diplomat.....LOL.....that I do like about you. But they can't both be. One says young earth less than 10,000 years old and the other says billions of years old. There's no jelling this together.

Yes. I was talking about two different points of view though. The first is from ‘outside’ the universe, where space and time don’t exist. (Science has revealed that space-time is part of the fabric of the physical universe, and was created at the moment of the big bang.) As we’re only human, and see things from ‘inside’ the universe, this God’s-eye perspective can only be considered hypothetically, or at best imagined, however.

The second point of view is from our own human perspective, from inside the universe. From this point of view you’re right. Billions of years is different to 7 days and can’t be reconciled.

it came about through a process of evolution, taking billions of years, just as the evolutionists claim.

I was right with ya....until this Andy. This I draw the line. If God said it took a day....it took a day. Went to the original Hebrew on this one. There is another word for day but this word here in Genesis means a 24 hour day.

I think that metaphorical statements and poetic imagery are often used in the Bible to reflect deep, spiritual truths. In my view, Genesis chapter 1 is an allegorical account, which provides insights into the purpose and meaning of Creation, rather than abstract scientific data about the universe’s formation. The latter is the role of science, the former the role of religion.

We all have different interpretations of Holy Scripture, mind, and I don’t expect everyone to agree that Genesis 1 is a metaphorical statement. Just as it can't be expected for everyone to interpret Genesis 1 literally. The reason for these differences in interpretation is because we’re all looking at the world, and at the Bible, through different ‘lenses’. In turn I think that the reason for this is because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. But whichever way we interpret Genesis chapter 1, it shouldn’t undermine the deeper meanings implied in the chapter, (i.e. that God existed before the universe, God created the universe, and that after every stage of Creation, “God saw that it was good.”)

"Do not forget one thing, my dear friends. There is no difference in the Lord’s sight between one day and a thousand years; to Him the two are the same.” - Peter 3.8

In context this has to do with the delay of His return. What you are quoting doesn't seem right. What are you reading? One day is AS a thousand years not that they are the same thing.

Yes, I agree it was a bit out of context. I was trying to use it to express my point that God can also see things from ‘outside’ of space and time.

We all have different interpretations of Holy Scripture, mind, and I don’t expect everyone to agree that Genesis 1 is a metaphorical statement. Just as it can't be expected for everyone to interpret Genesis 1 literally

Hey Andy I think you hit it on the head right here. This is the crux of the whole matter. As you probably already know I do take Genesis as literal and not allegorical. I think it's dangerous to take what God has given us as literal fact and spiritualize it away. When you do this, you can make it be anything you want it to be. Thus the many religions we have.....many biblical truths have been spiritualized away and the true meaning is lost. Remember God is the God of order....Satan is the god of disorder.

I think that metaphorical statements and poetic imagery are often used in the Bible to reflect deep, spiritual truths.

Yes, the bible is both literal and symbolical. But Genesis is not symbolic but literal. The poetic books would fit your description but not Genesis. Genesis as a whole is both literal and historical. Genesis and Revelation are the two most attacked books in the bible. One is detailing our beginning and the other our ending.

I'd love to know exactly what it is that bothers you about taking Genesis literally except for the fact that it would mess with the other religions that honor evolution. Keep in mind that Christ quoted from Genesis and he never aluded to the fact that we were to do anything but believe it as a literal truth.

Remember also that Theistic evolution did not come into play until after 1859 when Origin of Species came out. In order to Marry the Darwinists with Moses in came the idea that God used evolution in his creation. It was an attempt to pacify the creationists. I don't buy that and neither do many many Christian scientists. I believe it's a lie perpertrated by the master liar himself.

I heard 475 (or so) Scientists have signed some sort of petition trying to overturn that Judge's decision in PA about not teaching the ID theory in schools. There are many scientists that believe in Creation Science. Science and creation are not mutually exclusive by any stretch. God created science.

There is much science in the bible.....read the book of Job especially. Nothing in the modern science world has disproven scripture....nothing. In fact Science so far has backed up what scripture has put forth many many years ago. Not to mention, history and archeology has as well.

That in itself is amazing.

Yes, I agree it was a bit out of context. I was trying to use it to express my point that God can also see things from ‘outside’ of space and time

While I agree with you on the space time thing. We must be careful not to push "our view" and forsake the true meaning of God's words and what he means. After all when it all comes down to it.....it really doesn't matter what you and I think at all. It's all about HIM not about you and I.....as much as we like to think the world revolves around us.......remember it revolves around the .....SON!!!.....LOL.....

Hi KFC, thanks for your reply.

I'd love to know exactly what it is that bothers you about taking Genesis literally

I think that it’s fine to interpret Genesis chapter 1 literally. I don’t have a problem with people who do so. I personally choose to interpret it as an allegorical account, because I think that it’s been written more in that style. (The way the creation of the sea, the sun and the moon is described in Gen. 1.6-19 doesn’t look very scientific to me. Furthermore, if we interpret Genesis chapters 1 and 2 literally then we find some contradictions. Genesis 1.11/26, for example, states that mankind was created after the plants and vegetation had been put on earth; whilst Genesis 2.5-7 claims that God created man before any plants or vegetation.) But that's not the main reason why I don't interpret it literally...

God created science.

Yes, I believe that God is the Author of science. Science is the enterprise which explores God’s Creation, which means that science and Christianity can sit harmoniously together. In fact, St. Paul claimed that the nature of the Creator can be understood when we consider the Creation. It’s in humanity’s interests to openly and honestly explore the Creation, fearlessly so, and this is what our scientists are doing. I’ve learned that when we openly enquire into scientific discoveries, especially the more troubling and ‘darker’ aspects of Darwinian evolution, (e.g. the pain and struggle of nature’s unfolding, and the ruthless principles of ‘survival of the fittest’), we find a view of reality which positively illuminates and complements the New Testament portrayal of God. It would take a big post to describe it, however, and I wasn’t planning on labouring these views.

Here’s a great quote that I adhere to heartily: “Religion and science are opposed . . . but only in the same sense as that in which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can grasp everything." - Sir William Blagg

Genesis and Revelation are the two most attacked books in the bible.

Wouldn’t you agree that much of Revelations is clearly metaphorical and poetic in prose?

Remember also that Theistic evolution did not come into play until after 1859 when Origin of Species came out.

As humanity grows up, we become more and more aware of our place in the physical universe. Science has now revealed that the universe is far bigger and older than a literal interpretation of Genesis would have us believe. Consider the growth of a child. I think it would be quite worrying if the child’s views, and interpretations, and attitudes remained the same as a three-year old’s, throughout the course of its growth. The same principle applies to humanity's view of our place in the universe. It’s natural for our views and interpretations to change as we grow up and expand. Naturally, as we come closer to maturity, our interpretations and conclusions about life become more aligned with ‘what is so’.

many biblical truths have been spiritualized away and the true meaning is lost

A non-literal interpretation of Genesis chapter 1 doesn’t detract from the deeper meaning of the chapter at all, in my view.

After all when it all comes down to it.....it really doesn't matter what you and I think at all. It's all about HIM not about you and I.....as much as we like to think the world revolves around us.......remember it revolves around the .....SON!!!.....LOL.....

I completely agree with you KFC. Regardless of how we interpret Genesis chapter 1, it shouldn’t undermine our ability to share in the Lord’s peace. Acquiring a hearty spiritual life is more important, and determines the quality of our inner-life. In turn, it determines the quality of our outer-life too. “Seek first the Kingdom and all other things will be added to you. … The Kingdom of God is within you.” etc

Anyway, I hope our differing views don't cause too much friction. I think it’s good to discuss these things, and the subject and experience of God, science and religion is my primary passion to boot. You take care, I hope you're having a good Crimbo!

Genesis 1.11/26, for example, states that mankind was created after the plants and vegetation had been put on earth; whilst Genesis 2.5-7 claims that God created man before any plants or vegetation

hmmm not getting you here. Where is the problem here?

V11 says "And God said Let the earth bring forth grass the herb yeilding seed after his kind and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind whose seed is in itself upon the earth and it was so. (third day)

V26 says: "And God said let us make man in our image after our likeness......(sixth day)

Chap 2:5-7: And every plant of the field that was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

I never get angry Andy about any that have opposing views so don't worry about that. Usually those that get angry have their own agenda they are trying to push. My agenda...so to speak....is not mine but God's. I'm just the messenger. I didn't make this stuff up. God said just go and tell and that's what I'm doing.

A non-literal interpretation of Genesis chapter 1 doesn’t detract from the deeper meaning of the chapter at all, in my view.

The whole bible is basically the first 11 chapters repeated. How you treat the first 11 chapters is vital in understanding the rest of the 1178 chapters of the bible. If you accept them you will have no trouble with the rest of scripture. It's the foundation of the rest of the house.

In the first 11 chapters you have:

God, Satan, Man, Woman, Angels,heavens and earth and all that fill it. You have the first marriage, the first lie, the first rebellion,first child,the first murder, the first worship with the first altar, first sacrifice, first polygimist, first city, first musician, first cattleman, first metal worker, first preacher,first organized religion, first judgment,first boat,first covenant, first promise of redemption and restoration and more. It's all there everything we really need to know.

Heard this from somewhere: Thought it was worth repeating


This Book contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet.

hmmm not getting you here. Where is the problem here?

I'm not sure, to be honest. There's not really a problem. All I was saying is that Chapter 2:5-7 implies that God created man before any kind of plants or vegetation existed, which contradicts Genesis chapter 1.

The New International Version says:
Chap 2:5-7: "And no shurb of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground - the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and beathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

But I think we're getting too finicky here sweetheart. This wasn't the main reason I don't interpret Genesis chapter 1 literally anyway.

My agenda...so to speak....is not mine but God's. I'm just the messenger

We're all messengers, in one form or another, speaking our own truths from our own points of view. These points of view can be quite different, however, because we're all looking at the world from the subjective realm of our own consciousness. I think that it's up to us as individuals to discern whether our views or the views we hear are aligned with 'what is so', or not. (The inner-compass, or intuition, which God has placed in our hearts can give us a good gauge to this, I believe.) As we're all at different stages of growth, our models of the world can be quite different. So I think that the real key lies in finding peace with our own views and to keep an open mind. I don't think that it matters how we interpret God's Word, because what really matters is that we're being true to ourselves. And KFC one thing that I can see that you possess is great integrity and a sincere heart, which is priceless, in my view.

We're all messengers, in one form or another, speaking our own truths from our own points of view. These points of view can be quite different, however, because we're all looking at the world from the subjective realm of our own consciousness

That's just it Andy...I'm trying to tell you. I'm not looking at it from my viewpoint....as it means nothing. God's word has all the answers in there. You don't need to hear from me....it's him. He's God, not me. His word is objective while the world's way is subjective.

I don't think that it matters how we interpret God's Word, because what really matters is that we're being true to ourselves

No, no, no Andy.....it does matter. But we're not to interpret it....just read it. The bible interprets itself....if we would just get out of the way. It's not about being true to ourselves but being true to God that matters. We are just maggots at the bottom of the barrell with no hope of getting out. Jesus became a maggot to show us the way out.

Oxford Hebrew scholar, Professor James Barr, on the meaning of Genesis
‘… probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story

Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.’

Reference
James Barr, Oriel Professor of the interpretation of the Holy Scripture, Oxford University, England, in a letter to David C.C. Watson, 23 April 1984. Barr, consistent with his neo-orthodox views, does not believe Genesis, but he understood what the Hebrew so clearly taught. It was only the perceived need to harmonise with the alleged age of the earth which led people to think anything different—it was nothing to do with the text itself.

It was only the perceived need to harmonise with the alleged age of the earth which led people to think anything different—it was nothing to do with the text itself.

this is direct contradiction to what you urge Andy to get out of the way and let primitive perspectives be the reality when it is clearly poetry.

I think that metaphorical statements and poetic imagery are often used in the Bible to reflect deep, spiritual truths. In my view, Genesis chapter 1 is an allegorical account, which provides insights into the purpose and meaning of Creation, rather than abstract scientific data about the universe’s formation. The latter is the role of science, the former the role of religion.

extremely well thought out. I simply cannot understand why there are those who take things literally and lose the beauty of imagery.

creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

24 hour days are unique to this specific planet (in our solar system anyway) and have no relevance to any being in existence elsewhere in the universe. why would god constrain himself to work on a schedule so absolutely clunky as to require a leap year?