Constructive gadfly
Published on April 25, 2009 By stevendedalus In Politics

 

 

Fevers were running high in the wake of 9/11, and many high-level officials from the president to CIA bomb-ticking “24” paranoids—to say nothing of amateur sadists at Abu Ghraib —lost control of reason. No amount of rationalization will justify the use of unduly “harsh treatment,” or if you will, “torture.” Granted legitimate POWs are a respectable cut above the thugs of al Qaeda and deserve relatively humane treatment from their captors. Terrorists, however, are not “noble” soldiers defending their country right or wrong. They are murderous fanatics who in battle normally under fire would be killed unless the order to take no prisoners was lifted for the purpose of interrogation, which indeed would be extremely harsh under combat conditions, yet short of methodic torture even though if the captive situation were reversed chances are beheadings would be the end result.

There is understandable ambivalence over the current buzz over the release of the “torture” memos, precisely because the “harsh” treatment was perpetrated on such unsavory characters. Still, we are a nation of laws and not men who occasionally are irrational despite the excuse of 9/11. After all, if there were indisputable evidence that some captives were responsible in the masterminding of violating our country, then a speedy court martial would result in speedy execution, rather than the nonsense of illegally trying to extract relevant information which clearly was not the case or the officials would have uncovered the whereabouts of Killer bin Laden in lieu of such fantasy that the data led to more plots against the nation.

Even if it were true that torture draws reliable intelligence, this nation should be above medieval inquisitions which could also spread to all captives including our own. Those who were allegedly engaged in such unlawful tactics should be reprimanded and a public censure against the previous administration for violating the trust of the people.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Apr 28, 2009

Should we mistreat them simply because they mistreat us? Who is the better man then?

That's simple: the better man is the one who allows the other man to make the decision which level of torture is acceptable and adapts to his wishes.

 

on Apr 28, 2009

Honestly, I can tell that probably one of you was in the military... possibly two, but that's about it. I'm ex-military myself and I have to say from my point of view the original post is pure BS. Torture (you'll notice that they never say what was done to torture them, all that means is that it's not quite "up to par" with what is considered "humane") such as depriving people of light or food or water or whatever else has been used in jails as punishment for our own people. The "tortures" that usually end up being used to say how awful and evil we are as a country are usually much less severe than civilians of other countries can experience by their own government!

Sorry, but the thought that everyone has to have a jail cell, clean uniforms, three square meals a day and unlimited TV and education benefits from the government in order to be "civil" really gets on my nerves. The fact that many of the people captured if not ALL of them were captured with a gun in their hands which they were shooting at us just cause we exist never enters people's minds. Or it does, but you don't really think about what that means.

Now, I'm sorry if anyone here takes this too personally, it's not meant to be aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just tired of the attitude that the soldiers who are asked to be the nicest in the world and who are guarding people who wouldn't think twice at the first opportunity to kill their captors aren't doing their jobs right. Unless you've been there it's hard for anyone to imagine, and that includes me. It's amazing how many people would be outraged if one of their friends was indangered to the point where they would go to all sorts of lengths to get an answer out of someone, but they don't think that a soldier is in just that predicament. Only difference is the soldier's friends are the other soldiers that they work with day in and day out for weeks, months, sometimes years at a time. The self control involved in not just killing these people, the effort for a soldier who saw their friends wounded/killed by them or their "buddies" (which many if not ALL have by the time they come back), something to chew on for you.

on Apr 28, 2009

Honestly, I can tell that probably one of you was in the military... possibly two, but that's about it. I'm ex-military myself and I have to say from my point of view the original post is pure BS.

mommie4life welcome to JU. I think you'll be surprised by the number of (regular) members here that are veterans (from both the US and abroad) and have our active duty personnels interests at heart. While it might not change any minds here, it's good to hear all the voices. Some folks might be more inclined to hear it from someone from their own generation, rather than from their parents generation.

 

on Apr 28, 2009

Unfortunately my generation shows a definate lack of knowledge of their history or their own government a lot of times. My grandfather was a WWII vet. I remember him waking up swinging his entire life. It's because of him that I was interested in the military in the first place. So many were killed back then from weapons that weren't as advanced as what our soldiers or our enemies have today, yet we still managed less casualties in Iraq than in any war to date. Seems to me they're doing something right.

You know sometimes I wish that our country would adopt the manditory two years of service for all citizens that some countries have. It gives you a whole different perspective on what war is, about what you can do yourself, and about how fragile the life we know today is. Honestly, there hasn't been a really bloody war in my lifetime or in my parent's lifetime for that matter, we don't konw the kind of war that my grandfather endured and I just pray that we never will.

 

*EDIT* Sorry, this kind of came out like I was arguing with the person above. Wasn't meant as an argument, just ran off of the topic of my generation.... I pay attention to my history and the world around me just irritates me to no end how many out there are blind to it or just don't think that it pertains to today in anyway. *end rant*

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not always this argumentative. There's just some topics that people seem to conveniently leave out the parts that they don't want to see and that irritates me.

on Apr 28, 2009

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not always this argumentative. There's just some topics that people seem to conveniently leave out the parts that they don't want to see and that irritates me.

We all have our own "buttons".

I'd like to see two year mandatory service too, but I think it would just be a platform for some to burn their draft cards. The expedience would be good for many, but on deeper thought I don't want people in uniform that don't want to do the job. I did my share of baby-sitting on active duty. It only took away valuable time from those that wanted to do better, and was disproportional wasted on the few. Conscription would increase that IMO.

on Apr 29, 2009


"not the terrorists nor their liberal supporters in the west" A vile connection here; I refuse to believe that you really think that liberals support terrorists--ala Glenn Beck.
  

 
[/quote]

I have to say from my point of view the original post is pure BS.
You don't read carefully to deposit this judgmental crap. At the outset I said there was justifiable ambivalence on this topic. I also implied that "take no prisoners" should have been the order of the day. In '02 I thought it was a mistake to bring these thugs to Quantanomo. Those who had the remotest conection to al Qaeda or the Taliban should have been tossed in an Afghan brig for interrogation, but to expect useful information is a fantasy regardless of the treatment used. As for the military, I, too, am WWII vet, and in combat was under the aegis of "take no prisoners." 

  

on Apr 29, 2009

stevendedalus
I have to say from my point of view the original post is pure BS. You don't read carefully to deposit this judgmental crap. At the outset I said there was justifiable ambivalence on this topic. I also implied that "take no prisoners" should have been the order of the day. In '02 I thought it was a mistake to bring these thugs to Quantanomo. Those who had the remotest conection to al Qaeda or the Taliban should have been tossed in an Afghan brig for interrogation, but to expect useful information is a fantasy regardless of the treatment used. As for the military, I, too, am WWII vet, and in combat was under the aegis of "take no prisoners."

I still stand by my statement. Your original post states over and over again that any sort of "torture" by any of our people was inexcusable and that they should be punished for it, which is what I was disagreeing with. I don't see any posts where you contradict this, but feel free to point them out.

I'm curious how you managed to be a WWII vet.... you would have to be a couple years older in order to have met the draft requirements by the time the war ended. Though, there was more than one person who ended up getting in underaged by a year or two.

on Apr 29, 2009

77:Rounding up prisoners and shipping them to Quantanomo never should have taken place because it is vulnerable to the charge of  wrongful imprisonment of those left to rot without counsel. Your claim that only three were dealt "harsh treatment" is based on the fallacy that they imparted important information, but it does not mean others were not subject to the same treatment and if not, prison of any kind is never a picnic precisely because of natural hostility between cellmates and guards. I concur that releasing the memos was a huge blunder just as the release of those awful photos of AbuGhraib. Some questionable tactics should be left unsaid and dealt with promptly and effectively by competent oversight; otherwise it effects the current self-righteous crap from the left and the irrationally militant defense from the right. I would rather see more outrage over the lackadaisical criminal justice with respect to the horrendous kidnappings, torture and murder of children and women that continually rears its ugliness.   

on Apr 29, 2009

Your original post states over and over again that any sort of "torture" by any of our people was inexcusable and that they should be punished for it, which is what I was disagreeing with.
Reprimand and censure are hardly punishment. "over and over again"? Really now!

Those who were allegedly engaged in such unlawful tactics should be reprimanded and a public censure against the previous administration for violating the trust of the people.

I'm curious how you managed to be a WWII vet.... you would have to be a couple years older in order to have met the draft requirements by the time the war ended. Though, there was more than one person who ended up getting in underaged by a year or two.
Why not subject me to torture to get to the truth in lieu of poking into my profile? I've answered this charge once before: I enlisted when I was fifteen.

on Apr 29, 2009

Why not subject me to torture to get to the truth in lieu of poking int my profile?

maybe bout the 183rd time she waterboarded you--not the 182nd or 181st much less the first 100--it'll finally break you and you can then point her to a ju discussion from a couple years ago in which you shared your perspective on the atomic bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki. 

on Apr 29, 2009

stevendedalus

No amount of rationalization will justify the use of unduly “harsh treatment,” or if you will, “torture.”... Even if it were true that torture draws reliable intelligence, this nation should be above medieval inquisitions which could also spread to all captives including our own. Those who were allegedly engaged in such unlawful tactics should be reprimanded and a public censure against the previous administration for violating the trust of the people.

 

Okay, I'll correct my statement. You stated it as above in your original post. The entire feel of the post was against what they did and there were no more than a passing shrug to say otherwise. Reread the post in a detached manner and I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

 

stevendedalus

Why not subject me to torture to get to the truth in lieu of poking into my profile? I've answered this charge once before: I enlisted when I was fifteen.

 

As I stated in my post "you would have to be a couple years older in order to have met the draft requirements by the time the war ended. Though, there was more than one person who ended up getting in underaged by a year or two." Which is the truth, you were underaged which you admit. I had just glanced at your profile before responding, as I usually do on any forum when I am talking to someone who I don't know, and noticed your age. For many people they wouldn't bat an eyelash at it I'm sure, but I do remember that when the war started my grandfather just became old enough for the draft a month after and immediately volunteered before he could be drafted. Now, he would be 87 years old today, a full seven years older. I do understand that the war lasted for about five years, but that would have still made you two or three years too young to have been draft age which you admit. I didn't say that you weren't there, I just said that you were too young to have been supposed to have been there, which you admit is true. Actually, I was rather surprised to have someone of your age involved in yet alone starting this thread. My grandfather was very reluctant to use a computer at all, let alone talk to people online about a war which gave him nightmares for the rest of his life.

on Apr 29, 2009

 A vile connection here; I refuse to believe that you really think that liberals support terrorists

Very well and thank you for refusing to think that I believed what I didn't claim to believe.

I didn't say "liberals support terrorists", I spoke of the terrorists' "liberal supporters". There exist in the west a great number of anti-Semitic liberals who do support the terrorists (and send them money etc.). It is a vile connection, but it is not one I am responsible for.

 

on Apr 30, 2009

your perspective on the atomic bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki.
I doubt she 'd get the nuances.

on Apr 30, 2009

I didn't say that you weren't there, I just said that you were too young
Okay, Peace.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
I do see; it's just that you're overreacting and persistently misreading my intentions.

on Apr 30, 2009

It is a vile connection, but it is not one I am responsible for.
All right, but it's a poor use of the term liberal unless you mean neo-liberal whuch is entirely different. 

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