How do you think you can change the perception that abortion is murder? What arguments do you think could change someone's mind? Almost every one I have seen has been some nihilist diatribe about the fetus as a 'lump of flesh' etc., and I'm here to tell ya, it doesn't work.

So, if you were a propagandist for the movement, how would you proceed? Talking about the abilities of the mother is moot when people wait in line for years to adopt a newborn infant. For some of us it is akin to saying that a mother, who hits hard times after the baby is born, has the right to get rid of it violently, since she is suddenly not ready.

That sounds totally insane to you, no doubt, but it hinges on the fact that the people you are talking about see a fetus in the womb as an unborn child. That, as you say, is the sticking point, and so far I've seen nothing that could convince me otherwise. How would you go about it?

Here's an interesting concept for you. In all honesty, I must confess to being pro-choice. I am against abortion (personally) and believe the act to be an act of murder. However, I do NOT believe in forcing my beliefs on another. As such, it is up to each individual to make that choice (just like it is in ALL other actions).

Does this make me an extremist? If so, how? And of what type?

From where I'm standing (er, sitting), the belief that an unborn child/fetus can be casually murdered and discarded is as extreme a position as you claim my position is.

Like Baker said, what arguments would you use to convince me?

Just remember one thing - you are free to believe what you want upto the point where you attempt to force me to believe as you do. Try and convince me all you want. Apply force (of any kind) and we'll have some fun.

#2 by Chaos Manager Tuesday, February 14, 2006

That is what I found interesting about this article. While you find it OK to disagree with others it's only until force is used to change you mind where you fight back, yet the article itself is demanding change from those with opposing views as stated in the first sentence:

We need to change the perception of extremists that abortion is murder.

We need to do nothing, what needs to be done is respect the views of others who oppose you and hope that your point of view prevails. You do your part to make people understand your point of view and hope that it may sway them to back you up but you can not tell them they have to change simply because you do not like what they believe in. It is not the words that you chose to express in this article but the way you express them. You make it sound like as if they have to or else. And that is what I mean by you can't force them.

The only real thing we can do is make sure everyone is welll educated in the pros and cons of the subject so that they can make their own decisions as to what to follow without doing it simply because mommy said so or they only heard it from one point of view.

You make it sound like as if they have to or else. And that is what I mean by you can't force them.

Nevertheless, those who perceive it as murder should take it to the logical conclusion by outlawing abortion it becomes a felony.   

How would you go about it?

From your viewpoint they should be at least imprisoned for being violent. 

I must confess to being pro-choice. I am against abortion (personally) and believe the act to be an act of murder.

The way you phrase it choice means to wilfully murder a child, rather than in most instances the woman is incapable of handling motherhood.

"From your viewpoint they should be at least imprisoned for being violent. "

I know this will doom me in your eyes, but yes, I think murder is a crime, and abortion is murdering an unborn child. A woman who decides to rid herself of her unborn child because of money, or vanity, or convenience is no different than a man who rids himself of his wife because of money, vanity, or convenience.

When some guy gets drunk and kills a pregnant woman with his car, you have no problem getting the man on the street to call it two murders. When that same guy knocks up his secretary and doesn't want his wife to know, it's a inalienable right to kill the fetus.

"The way you phrase it choice means to wilfully murder a child, rather than in most instances the woman is incapable of handling motherhood."

Motherhood isn't mandatory. There are resources for women who can't handle being mothers to pass the child on to people who can. It's dishonest to paint this as motherhood or nothing.

I can't accept that abortion is murder simply because the word "murder" is a legal term with a specific definition. Whether the crime was the killing of a human being or the person was killed by someone committing another crime, the fact remains, murder is a death of someone as a result of a crime.

As long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.

Now, when we can convince bigots that "human being" is not defined by the appearance of a person, but by DNA, that will be the day we can finally end the killing of human beings simply because they don't look human.

It took the people of this continent a few hundred years to figure out that Black people really are human beings. Will it take that long for us to figure out that everyone with Human DNA is (in fact) a human being?

Personally? I would see the abortionist (the Doctor's that actually performed the procedure) put on trial for murder and the "mother" up on charges of aiding & abetting a felony (at the least), consipiracy to commit murder and murder. This is assuming that abortion is no longer legal and killing the unborn child is again a crime. Since it is, currently, legal, then it is not *technically* murder.

If the woman is incapable of motherhood, then she shouldn't be spreading her legs and inviting the act of procreation. Period. Otherwise, she should suck it up, deal with the fact that she's screwed up, and learn. Some of the best mothers I've seen are those that weren't ready for it, but rose to the challenge. Texas Wahine is a good example of one of these ladies.

The way you phrase it choice means to wilfully murder a child

That's the thing about Free Will, and the freedoms that we possess here in the U.S. (and even most Western countries) - we are free to make our own choices, even if they are illegal.

Everything you do is a choice. Sometimes, you may not like the options available to choose from, so it seems like there IS no choice, but you always have a choice. Good, bad, or indifferent. Even the choice of not making a choice, is making a choice (you're choosing not to choose one of the immediately obvious choices).

So, yes, I believe that anyone choosing to abort a child, is choosing to murder the child, even if the law currently doesn't describe it as such. However, it's still a choice that each individual needs to make on their own.

Personally? I would see the abortionist (the Doctor's that actually performed the procedure) put on trial for murder and the "mother" up on charges of aiding & abetting a felony (at the least), consipiracy to commit murder and murder. This is assuming that abortion is no longer legal and killing the unborn child is again a crime. Since it is, currently, legal, then it is not *technically* murder.

"Technically" it wasn't really ever illegal. What it "was", was it was up to the individual states to decide whether or not it should be legal. Which is the way it "should" be again. At the time it was illegal in NY, but it was ok in NJ. But I agree on the rest of your points. And at one time that is the way it was. See everyone thinks that by overturning Roe vs Wade that abortions will become "illegal". Nothing could be further from the truth. Overturning it would simply mean it is up to the individual states to make a ruling for that state and nothing more. The way it stands now is that it's pushing someone's agenda down "all" of our collective throats.

Personally I agree with you. I look at it this way. If you're going to do it (have sex) you roll the dice and take your chances. If it comes up craps....too bad, you lose. Now take your lumps and stop whining about it. I did back when I was 21. I had unprotected sex and ended up with my first son (little jerk!). But I had to fight to keep him. She wanted to abort him.

As long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.

This is true, otherwise capital punishment would also be murder.

If we believe that an unborn baby is a life (as the prolife community does), then abortion IS murder, plain and simple. Prettying up the terminology does not make it any less so.

While I won't get into the debate over first trimester abortions in this particular thread, I must note that late term abortions most definitely involve a viable fetus; in other words, a human being. And killing an unborn baby is not only morally EQUAL to the murder of an adult, it in fact, is even MORE morally reprehensible, because it involves an individual who could not possibly have defend itself against the murder being committed against it. I find it ironic that the left, which holds in such high regard the rights of developmentally disabled adults that it pushed for the abolition of institutions so these adults could lead full, productive lives, when many of them are entirely dependent on others for their material needs, could so callously dismiss a child who is no more dependent than these "special" adults, and seek to mask their true intentions behind kinder, gentler terminology.

Abortion IS murder. More than that, the modern practice of abortion is founded on the philosophies of a eugenist who made Hitler look like Mother Theresa.

10 by DJ Bandit Wednesday, February 15, 2006

As long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder. This is true, otherwise capital punishment would also be murder.

maybe abortion does not reach the legal definition of murder, but none the less it is!

State execution is also murder under the aspects of the law.

It's murder.

Nothing will ever change my mind on that. Call me closed minded. I've been called worse.

#13 by Tova7 Wednesday, February 15, 2006

It's murder. Nothing will ever change my mind on that. Call me closed minded. I've been called worse.

holding on to beliefs and opinions does not make one closed minded. You are far from closed minded!

Of course, anyone is free to define murder for their own convictions and choices. If someone chooses to consider Capital Punishment or Self Defense murder, they are completely free to do so. However, laws and policies are based on legal definitions. Under the law, murder is not synonymous with "taking another life". The motives and purposes of the act of killing are vital.

Unless we are willing to try the mafia hitman together with the person who causes a motor vehicle accident or the pharmaceutical company whose product caused death as a side effect, we pretty much have to stick with legal definitions when making laws and holding trials.