"Actually, I have documented pretty thoroughly the eugenist philosophy of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, ...."

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times. Planned Parenthood, an organization with which I have had intimate dealings (not abortion, just to not confuse the discussion), about 25 years ago, and were it not for them, I don't know where I would have turned for help. Sufffice it to say that bringing up Sanger's bio is evident of your complete ignorance of Planned Parenthood. Equating pro-choice as pro-abortion is specious bullshit, meant only to frame the pro-choice argument in a falsely negative light.

What a bunch of clueless....................... never mind. This is, after all, joeuser.

" A woman has every right not to go through the anxiety of manufacturing babies for someone else who probably is oriented to eugenics. "

Of course. She can opt not to become pregnant. When you say that, it sounds identical to me to someone saying "A woman has every right not to go through the worry of childrearing, so she should be allowed to drown her baby at will." You offer nothing for the child, and you offer nothing for the father. The modern woman as arbiter of death.

Odd that you would bring up Eugenics when it is the pro-abortion side of the equation that can trace its history directly back to it. In the beginning planned parenthood was devised to make it easier for the poor and unwanted NOT to procreate, because it was better they be weeded out of society.

There is an interesting stigma attributed to 'liberals' - that, they, themselves, believe abortion is a necessary tool to relieving poor single mothers of an unfortunate, unavoidable circumstance. Somehow, it is thought, confirming a right to an abortion is also a vote for it's use!

There *is* a stigma, rightly applied. It's called the litmus test of "Roe v. Wade", which liberals like Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein draw out every time there is any candidate for any high office. Which these women, and presumably their constituents (because there's no way this pro-RvW campaign would be started or perpetuated by them ), use to conveniently withdraw their support and/or actively campaign against people who might possibly be a threat to the court's 1974 decision.

We saw it with Alito, we saw it with Roberts, we see it again and again. Every time someone comes up for political office they are given the RvW test by Dems/libs and if they fail, they are the enemy.

So if there is an "interesting stigma attributed to liberals" regarding abortion, then it is of their own making.

It's also cute that when you talk to women about abortion, they have a vastly more sedate attitude about it. Even the women I know who are pro-abortion aren't people I could ever see getting one unless it was something dire. Here, though, we have guys who seem to be all for them to do it on a whim. They wouldn't want to be a baby manufacturer...

I wonder why? I wonder why men so readily lean toward "a woman's right to choose?" Abortion is a murder of convenience, and frankly a large part of that convenience is on the male side of the equation. No child support, no sham marriage. Thank ya ma'am and back to fun the next day. When I watch MTV and see these supposedly idealistic young men expounding on a woman's right to choose between screams of "Show us your tits!" at spring break, well, let's just say I find it vageuly facetious.

On the other hand, some would-be fathers would accept the responsiblity, and are ready to make a commitment. They have no say at all, and have to live with the image of their unborn children being flushed out and becoming jsut so much bio-refuse. We want a responsibility free society, and frankly we'll end up with it. We'll also end up with the kind of citizens that would thrive in such a wasteland.

What a bunch of clueless....................... never mind. This is, after all, joeuser.

No actually that is an indication of you.  Clueless and stupid.  By your own words and deeds.  You can read his articles,  yet you chose not to.  SO stay stupid.  You offer no facts, just a useless opinion.

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times.

Margaret Sanger's philosophy FORMED Planned Parenthood. If the Hitler Youth reinvented itself as a service organization, would you want your children involved, knowing the foundation on which it was built? The fact is, Sanger's ideas STARTED PP, and they were used to PROMOTE PP. Small coincidence, isn't it, that 40% of all abortions in America are performed on black women, despite the fact that they make up only 7% of the population?

You cannot separate an organization from the ideals of its founder.

Small coincidence, isn't it, that 40% of all abortions in America are performed on black women, despite the fact that they make up only 7% of the population?

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black?

A woman has every right not to go through the anxiety of manufacturing babies for someone else who probably is oriented to eugenics.

---stevend

What the hell does that mean? Manufacturing babies?
See, for me, that's where we part company....righties don't look at it as "manufacturing". We see it as a little more personal than that.
But the lefties, with their secularized, science-adoring ways, ultimately remove from the equation the very humanism they claim to embrace with such passion.

but they are! Precisely because prospective adoptive parents are choosy--they want pedigrees.

--stevend

Show me.

The mother is sparing the fetus from having to make choices in a crazy world.

---stevend



I'm sorry, but this just made me laugh. If I shot you smack in the head right now, would you thank me before you died for sparing you from having to make any more choices in our crazy world?

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black?

--davad70

Well, only about 15% overall is black, so that's probably just about right.

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times.

---dog under a dusty porch

Margaret Sanger FOUNDED PP; what does it matter when she died? He ideals are what it is based upon. She got harrassed and even arrested several times, for disseminating information about birth control (at the time condoms and the Rhythm Method). Nowadays we get harrassed for disseminating information against abortion. Times, I must say, have certainly changed.

Conincidentally, considering this discussion, I saw a young girl at the mall the other night, probably 15 or 16. She was wearing a t-shirt that said "Choose Life---Abortion is Murder".
Now, I'd seen other similar shirts over the years, and this got me to thinking. I honestly don't think I've EVER seen a pro-abortion shirt on anyone anywhere, except maybe in the paper or on TV, in pics from a rally or demonstration or something.

To me, that says something about the pro-choice people.

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black? --davad70 Well, only about 15% overall is black, so that's probably just about right.

Not overall US population, female population...is only 7% black? That seems really low to me. I'm off to research.

Conincidentally, considering this discussion, I saw a young girl at the mall the other night, probably 15 or 16. She was wearing a t-shirt that said "Choose Life---Abortion is Murder". Now, I'd seen other similar shirts over the years, and this got me to thinking. I honestly don't think I've EVER seen a pro-abortion shirt on anyone anywhere, except maybe in the paper or on TV, in pics from a rally or demonstration or something. To me, that says something about the pro-choice people.

For one thing, abortion is legal...the law of the land if you will. So what would be the point of wearing a t-shirt that says "Abortion Is Not Murder". The majority of people in this country believe that, and it's legal. People don't usually wear shirts that affirm their belief in something that is common sense or "the norm". If they're going to wear a shirt that has any political theme to it, it's more often than not, going to be anti-establishment. I spend 5-6 days a week at malls all over the midwest. I run stores that sell lots of t-shirts. We have several anti-bush/cheney shirts...I think around 5 or 6 maybe, and they all sell fairly well, especially "Meet The Fuckers", which features a picture of Bush & Cheney. We don't sell any shirts that are in support of Bush. Not because of any ideology, but because they don't sell. Why don't they sell? Because people buy shirts that are shocking, rebellious, and anti-establishment. Abortion IS the establishment, that's why I don't think you see that on shirts.

By they way, in all my days and nights in malls all around the country, I've never seen anyone wearing a pro-choice OR pro-life t-shirt.

"If" it's "truly" pro-choice, where does the babies "choice" come i The mother is sparing the fetus from having to make choices in a crazy world.

If that's the case then it is "not" truly pro-choice. The mother is "not" sparing the fetus anything. She is taking "away" their life.

"Abortion IS the establishment, that's why I don't think you see that on shirts."

Or you might say legal abortion is a temporary evil. I guess you could say 30 years is "established", but in the great scheme of things? Meh... I guess we'll find out

Regardless, something must be done to prevent the abuse of the courts here in the US. When you can't convince voters to make abortion legal, you work the legal system until you make it illegal NOT to make it legal. It's time for the end-runs around the Democratic process to stop.

Landmark decisions of how we will govern the US are now made in the courts, not in the Congress, and that is an affront to Democracy. Abortion is not a right, not in any sense of the word, not any more than any other practice we make illegal. There's a difference in interpreting what is in the Constitution and reading whatever you want into it for convenience.

In the beginning planned parenthood was devised to make it easier for the poor and unwanted NOT to procreate, because it was better they be weeded out of society.

Could very well be true, for there is definitely an economic factor in planning but not to selectively terminate the "undesirable."

Under the guidance of the Supreme Court's precedence in Roe v. Wade, it is never the man's choice, it's unfortunate you'd even entertain that thought in stating that it would "perhaps [be up to] the man implicated".

I meant this in the context of a private couple arriving at a decision, not as a rule of law.

sounds identical to me to someone saying "A woman has every right not to go through the worry of childrearing, so she should be allowed to drown her baby at will."

Some do actually and reinforces the need for abortion in these cases, even to the extent of tying up tubes.

What the hell does that mean? Manufacturing babies?

Very clear, surrogate mothers, inc.

If I shot you smack in the head right now, would you thank me before you died for sparing you from having to make any more choices in our crazy world?

Simply tongue-in cheek in response to "a baby's choice." I do not see a fetus as having any choice.

"I do not see a fetus as having any choice."

Summons the word "defenseless" to mind. Evidently the only one allowed to have a choice in the matter is the woman, after she pretends to have no other choice than getting pregnant. IMHO, the real choice is previous to fertilization. After that it is just a messy way of avoiding reality.