So, wait, the surge isn't working? Why is even the left news telling me it does work? Why are soldiers telling me it works?

No, I implied that in the context of McCain's diffidence in the surge if we still have to wait till 2013!

It is not a puzzle to determine whether the surge has worked or not. It was made to look like one only because that is the only way McCain and Bush can say they did something right.

It is very simple. just determine what was the "ultimate" not the "intermediate" purpose of the surge?

According to everyone, and i mean every single person in the administration and McCain, the "ultimate goal" was to give the Iraqi fueding factions breathing room from violence so they can reach some kind of agreement and end the hostilities between themselves.

the breathing room was achieved by the Surge Troops..... but there is no progress on the political front.

So now you tell me... did the surge achieve its purpose.... from the facts on the ground ... no it did not. was the breathing room from violence was achieved ... of course ... our troops always achieve any military goal given to them .... but that was not the main Goal ....

Every one including the top military commanders in Iraq declared several times that the problem in Iraq could not be solved militarily ... it is a political and ethnic problem and it has been there for more than 1300 yrs. are we going to keep the troops there till they solve that????????

If keeping the troops there has a hidden undeclared purpose ... which is mere occupation of an oil-rich land ... then lets stop pretending .... and tell the American people the truth. and let them decide

 

Are none of you familiar with the Anbar Awakening? There has been significant political peacemaking throughout the country thanks to the breathing space provided by the surge. For the first time in years, Shia militias aren't attacking Sunni neighborhoods!

If that's not political progress, what the hell do you expect? You expect the Iraqi government to solve all its problems within a few months of the violence slowing? Our own government cannot seem to pull us out of our own energy crisis, and they don't have to deal with ethnic rivalries dating back 1000 years...


"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it."
- George Orwell

You do seemed to have attracted some of the partisans that are going to darken these pages for the next 4 months. I see they have their talking points, but dont read much either.

But I disagree with your statement. IN the end, the US has an infinite capacity to continue the occupation (the war is after all over) of Iraq. The troop terms are going back to normal, and the down turn in the economy will only serve to extend the will of the people, not eliminate it.

What will end it is the same thing that ended (the actual act, not the politics and dynamics that lead up to it) Vietnam. We will declare it over, and go home. Whether it is over or not will remain to be seen.

I'd rather the American politicians and the people decide when it is over than the Iraqis.

C'mon, now - you know better than to repeat that claptrap.

Not even Obama will be so foolish as to expose our troops to risk by too rapid a withdrawal, but I consider the Iraqi government telling us it is nearing time to go a very positive thing - wasn't very long ago at all that talk of a rapid pullout scared the beejesus out of 'em; they couldn't get to a mike/reporter fast enough to say, "No, no, no!! We need you here!"

No artificial calendar will ever be a legitimate way to fight or end a war.  The events on the battlefield are the ONLY real way to determine the next course of action.

 

When people demand artificial timetables they are only revealling their ignorance.  When polticians talk about them, they are only showing their willingness to pander to the ignorant.

I gave McCain the slack by mentioning 2013. If the oil companies have their way we will be there a hundred years for huge reserve requiring little effort compared to offshore drilling.
Since the surge is working send them home.

Good argument for making offshore drilling a tad less expensive & cumbersome, wouldn't you say? We are incredibly selfish here in the US. We want cheap oil & gas but we're not willing to get our hands dirty or have drilling in our own back yard. Let the drilling happen where it spoils the 'natural beauty' of some other godforsaken place inhabited by people we could give a shit about, people willing to get their hands & land dirty, long as we don't have to drive by it every day. That's not the oil companies saying that, that's the elitist left.

The 'oil companies' are not the big bad bogeyman and they don't dictate where our troops are deployed. How much oil do we get out of Germany, BTW?

What kind of logic says, "if something is working, quit!"?

Oh yeah, I'm expecting logic for the Bash Bush Bus.. my mistake.

The iraqis don't get a say in which militaries are active in their country?

Key word, working. Not worked. Meaning still going not finished. But yea, I forget Democrats are the "immediate/right now results" party.

Did not infer they were bogeypersons. Germany probably supplies them with tools of the trade.