Constructive gadfly
Published on September 14, 2011 By stevendedalus In Philosophy

I don’t have a problem with atheists — each to his own comfort level — nonetheless, it is ridiculous for one of that inclination to get rattled to the extent that others of belief are denied their comfort. Atheism by definition is free from religion. Theists are free to believe as they see fit; atheists should look upon these  " misguided" as pathetic but have the right to the "wrong" path. If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line. In this respect they are as trapped in "belief" as the rest of us pathetic  old fools. They should therefore lobby for a limited currency series that states "In "God we do not trust," or a postage stamp that shows a black hole with the inscription "Godless."  


Comments (Page 13)
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on Jan 20, 2012

Sinperium
Who's to say there isn't a life form in the infinite number of universes we perceive as God? It takes a lot of ego to refuse to contemplate that too
How about we at least try to be realistic and discuss what we know (sort of) instead of pondering silly stuff. If someone wants a perfect answer, they are definitely on the wrong (time) planet for finding it. I stopped playing the “what if …” games a long time ago. There are places they put people who cannot distinguish between realities and fantasies very well. I am not beholden to any ‘one’ let alone every ‘fantasy’ anyone might think of … what obligates me to respond to nonsense or things that the asker is clueless about. What ego … how about a little common sense for a change. I am an atheist so I do not care where you contemplate his existence could be … I don’t. To be or not to be … that is the question … not where you be, hahaha.

on Jan 20, 2012

Seleuceia
Quoting lulapilgrim,
reply 148
Try making up a character who says things that men will die for, not just in His day, or today, but hundreds of years from now.

SELEUCEIA POSTS:

Well, that's the thing, why should you do those things for a man? Who cares if he is the son of God, he isn't God. If I'm going to believe, fight, and die for a cause, I think God has an edge over Jesus or any prophet...

Because from the beginning of the Christian era, Catholics the world over have believed, do believe and will always believe in the Divinity of Christ. Those who died/are dying/will die for Christ believe He is Almighty God. Jesus is God born in flesh. We believe that Christ is the Emmanuel--the "God with us." 

It's certain that the Jews knew their OT Scriptures (prophesies) foretold that God should come on earth. To Isaias 742-701 BC,  God made known clearer than ever before, that Christ is God Himself   "God Himself will come and save you." 35:4. Isaias is the one who called Him, Emmanuel, God  with us. 7:14. "God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." v.9. Isaias told in detail of the Christ being wounded for our iniquities, being led to slaughter, laying down His life for the sin of the world. V 53.  The fulfillment of this prophecy is recorded in the 4 Gospels.

Many times Christ said He was God.

Before the assembled Jewish court, Christ told the Jews He was God. A year before they tried to stone Him "Becasue that thou, being a man makest thyself God."

When Christ said He was "Lord even of the Sabbath" He affirmed that He was the First Cause and Instituter of the Lord's day. For no man has a better right to assume command than he who has instituted and created what he commands, no man could claim that he was "Lord even of the Sabbath" unless He had first instituted and promulgated the sabbath.

Christ declared that He had the power to forgive sins and He delegated that power to His Apostles. Sin, being a violation against Almighty God's law, only God is able to wield the power to forgive it, and only God can delegate that power to His human agents.

The supernatural works of Christ give testimony that He is God.

Here are a few:

He commanded the waves to be still and they obeyed Him. He walked upon the waters and they bore up St.Peter with Him. He raised Lazarus from the dead.The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cured, the deaf hear.

There are many well-authenticated miracles that have followed the martrydom of the Apostles and others in defense of the Divinity of Christ. One is in the year 484, under Hunneric, king of the Arian vandals, Christians were persecuted for expressing their belief in the DIvinity of Christ. In the city of Tipsa, the tongues of those who recited the NIcene Creed were torn out. This act was followed by miraculous speech. These tongueless men were heard distinctively proclaiming their belief that Christ is True God. Sixty of them escaped to COnstantinople, where day after day people marveled at hearing men who had been stripped of their tongues spreading the doctrine of the DIvinity of Christ.

The things that Christ did are beyond human power. He foretold His Passion, He rose from the dead, He appeared to His disciples 13 times after His Resurrection in Judea, in Galilee, in the supper room and His ascension into Heaven. The Resurrection is without doubt the miracle of miracles that proves His Divinity.

All of the Apostles preached His Resurrection at a time when they were being persecuted by the Jews (until 70AD) and the Romans for nearly 300 years.  St.Peter was crucified and St.Paul was beheaded in Rome. St. Matthew died by the sword in Ehiopia, St.Mark was dragged to his death through the streets of Alexandria. St.Luke was hanged on an olive tree, st. John was thrown in oil (but he did not die). St.James was beheaded in Jerusalem and St. James the Less was thrown off the Temple and beaten to death. St.Philip was hanged against a pillar in Phrygia. St.Bartholomew was flayed alive; St.Jude was beheaded while St.Matthias and St.Barnabas were stoned to death.

The first 58 popes died a martyrs death.

 

 

 

 

 

on Jan 20, 2012

Seleuceia
Quoting lulapilgrim,
reply 151
Islam holds that GOd is transcendent in a way that precludes the kind of intimacy He shows with mankind in the Bible. Islam denies God the Father and the word "love" is not there.

SELEUCEIA POSTS:

The language used in the Quran is very similar to that of the old testament...to dismiss Islam because "well, it's not as warm and fuzzy" as Christianity essentially is comparable to dismissing the Old Testament...

Sorry. No sale.

The OT is an indispensible part of the Bible. God raised up great leeaders (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David) and prophets to prepare for and declared the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men, including Mohammed.

The entire Bible reveals God's plan to redeem mankind and unite all nations under one covenant and one kingdom (church). This was all fulfilled in the advent of Jesus Christ, the God-Man and His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth." 1Tim. 3:15.

In 33AD just before He ascended into Heaven, Christ told us to beware of false prophets that will lead us astray.

With that, Mohammed, the Qur'an and Islam seem anti-climaxes of God's plan of salvation history.

 

 

on Jan 20, 2012

Sinperium
Ack! You've never watched Babylon-5!?

I watched a Bablyon-5 movie once, but I've never seen any part of the actual show. So basically I only know what the station and a White Star looks like.

Sinperium
Who's to say there isn't a lifeform in the infinite number of universes we perceive as God? It takes a lot of ego to refuse to contemplate that too.

Contemplate is very different from believe.

on Jan 20, 2012

Seleuceia
The God of the Old testament (and the Quran) is very different from that of

the New Testament....if Christianity was only the New Testament and in no way was related to the Old Testament, there wouldn't be a problem...but since Christianity is built upon the same God as the Old testament, one has to wonder where God suddenly got the attitude change...

If you are able to reconcile the vengeful, dominating God of old with the forgiving, compassionate God of new, you can't dismiss Islam on the basis of its language....

I dismiss Islam as a heresy, a false religion that contains some truths and error. There are many differences between the OT and the Qur'an. A couple that come to mind is that Mohammed taught that it was blasphemy to call Allah your father...while in Jeremias 31:9, the Lord God tells Israel that He is a Father to them. Another is that Mohammed taught that Allah has no image and in Genesis 1: 26-27 God created male and female to His own image.

So let's get that out of the way.

As far as the rest... I understand your point.

There is no reconciliation needed. There is no problem. It is the same God in both Testaments.

What we must realize is that Divine Revelation was given progressively with the passage of time. God gave His true religion to mankind gradually so that men could be prepared by more simple doctrines for still more noble truths. This development can be seen in the Old leading to the fullness in Christ in the New.There is no contradiction between God as manifested in the OT and as more fully revealed in the NT.

Yes, God of the OT was a strict God who imposed rules and punishment. But just as a parent with his child, punishment is for our own good. The punishments meted out are for the purpose of bringing the people to repentance. But we can't overlook His many miracles and gifts to the Israelites. We can also find texts where Divine mercy and love are stressed. Psalm 102 is about thanksgiving to God for His mercies. God declares, "I have loved you with an everlasting love" Jeremias 31:3.

One thing we learn about Almighty God from His dealings with the unfaithful Jews is that He is always faithful and ready to forgive.

Now on to the New testament and we see how severe the threats of Divine punishment taught by Jesus and His Apostles. Christ calls us to the same rigors of obedience. Where the OT spoke of earthly punishment for sin, the NT of eternal punishment. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns of Hell. Christ showed Divine wrath in expelling the moneychangers who were using the Temple as a marketplace. How about St.Matt. 23 where Jesus condemns the Pharisees for their evil?

From Creation in Genesis, we see God has been loving and merciful. God made man in His image and will allow us to follow our own designs, but we must reap the fruits of our disobedience.

 

on Jan 20, 2012

lulapilgrim
Quoting BoobzTwo,
reply 163
The basic timeline of a 4.5 billion year old Earth, with approximate dates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution

* 3.8 billion years of simple cells (prokaryotes),
* 3 billion years of photosynthesis,
* 2 billion years of complex cells (eukaryotes),
* 1 billion years of multicellular life,
* 600 million years of simple animals,
* 570 million years of arthropods (ancestors of insects, arachnids and crustaceans),
* 550 million years of complex animals,
* 500 million years of fish and proto-amphibians,
* 475 million years of land plants,
* 400 million years of insects and seeds,
* 360 million years of amphibians,
* 300 million years of reptiles,
* 200 million years of mammals,
* 150 million years of birds,
* 130 million years of flowers,
* 65 million years since the non-avian dinosaurs died out,
* 2.5 million years since the appearance of the genus Homo,
* 200,000 years of anatomically modern humans,

 

LULA POSTS:

I've seen this.

Where's the empirical scientific proof that the earth and life on it are billions and millions of years old? There is none, so don't claim this as fact is all I'm saying.

Seleuceia
There is a whole host of evidence that consistently points to an age for the universe of around 14 billion years...you have cosmic background radiation, the age of old stars, etc....saying there is no empirical evidence is just plain wrong...the existence of evidence doesn't necessarily prove a theory but I don't see how you can argue against the existence of such evidence...

Gotta disagree. Look again at what I said. There is no empirical scientific proof of this timeline. And this is absolutley true, so we can't rightly claim that timeline as fact because we aren't positively sure. That's my beef...claiming this as fact especially to unwary school age children.

I can give a whole host of evidence that consistently points to a young age for the universe, around 10,000 years old.    The high amount of Hydrogen in the atmosphere gives problems to the billions of years for the universe idea. R.L.Wysong and Harold S. Slusher would argue that comets lead to the young universe conclusion. Others would argue the population of the earth suggests the earth is young. Consideraton must be given to the data concerning the power of the magnetic field of the earth. I've even read that the saltiness of the ocean suggests a young earth.

Can we ignore the possibility that the Creator of the universe rapidly transformed matter created on Day 1 into galaxies on Day 4 and stretched out starlight instantaneously throughout the universe? Instantaneous Creation is also mature Creation. It certainly was when Jesus turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana. Once He changed the water to wine, it was new, yet tasted like vintage.

Seleuceia
As for the earth, the geological study started by James Hutton and Charles Lyell has decades of evidence pointing to an age in the billions (though the initial estimates were in the hundred thousands or millions)...again, you don't have to believe the evidence but there is no doubt a lot of it with a certain degree of consistency...

Ya, you're describing early 19th century uniformitarianism; the theory that started it all. Uniformitarianism is the idea that inferred that various features of the Earth's strata, including the fossil record, only formed slowly over millions of years by the same processes that can now be observed at work upon the earth.

They studied strata in England, Scotland and France at a time when little was known about strata or fossils.  They divided the strata into 3 divisions, called "eras", dating one as the youngest, another as older and the third as very ancient. They based their theory on the number of still living species represented by fossils in each stratum. If a given stratum had few fossils represented by species alive today, they dated it more anciently.

They ASSUMED  that strata formed over vast ages of time and Darwinian evolution has been linked with it ever since including the path leading up to man can be traced as follows: Invertebrates evolved into fish, fish into amphibians, amphibians into reptiles, reptiles into mammals, some of the mammals into primates, primitive primates into apes, and a common progenitor of ape and man evolved into human beings. 

If this were a fact, after all these millions of years and this kind of change going on, we should find abundance evidence of one species changing into another. But there is none. Nada.

But today, it has been established that Lyell's theory does not agree with reality. The percentage of still living species is very very high throughout all strata and varies from place to place for each stratum in different localities. BUT,

that didn't stop the evolutionists from following his scheme. They held on to his mistake and elaborated on it. Scientists through today have been stuck with this relic of early 19th century error. But hey, it fits to promote evolution. Pseudo science---Geology and paleontology have been saddled with it ever since.

 

on Jan 20, 2012

lulapilgrim
Exchange Christ for Luther or Mohammed? I don't think so.

We already know you don't. Your church replaced him with the Pope

on Jan 21, 2012

Seleuceia #170; you are wasting your time. It will not do any good to say things like we have ~ 300,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy or that Andromeda has over a trillion stars in its. It will do no good to explain that the light alone would require 2.5 million years to reach earth for us to be able to observe it at all, at least since it was documented in 964 AD. As a matter of fact, it will not matter what scientific findings you are want to discuss … some will attempt to trump it with their mythology, again as usual. There will be no compromise here unless you make it. Hahaha ... our 200 year old relic huh ... they sure do have some balls, I will give them that much ... to try and preach about believed old (real old?) relics, hehehe. Science is auto updated as the information dictates ... theology is the dead horse in the way of progress. They are not only being intellectually dishonest, they are being childish in their refusal to accept the world around them and us. They may choose to believe elsewise ... but that has nothing to do with reality ... as usual. Just because someone refuse to accept anything real for an explanation doesn’t mean it is wrong … it means they are being ridiculously naive as usual

Knowledge is only knowledge ... when it can be amply demonstrated!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL333ED00362C692D7&feature=plcp

 

Sinperium, notice the mention of “common experiences” … not individual ones.

on Jan 21, 2012

Sinperium, notice the mention of “common experiences” … not individual ones.

Lol--I got it.

on Jan 21, 2012

Smoothseas
Quoting lulapilgrim,
reply 180
Exchange Christ for Luther or Mohammed? I don't think so.

SMOOTHSEAS POSTS:

We already know you don't. Your church replaced him with the Pope

Did not. Where did you get that loony idea?

 

on Jan 21, 2012

lulapilgrim
Did not. Where did you get that loony idea?

Seems to me God was created and has been used in various religions to take moral authority away from specific authorities such as tyrants, governments,religious and nonreligious institutions. The pope is nothing but a false idol to many including many who believe God is a personal thing and the word of their God is not being expressed by a mere mortal such as the Pope. Once an individual assigns total moral authority to any other individual or institution they are perhaps worshiping a false idol and/or perhaps believing in a false prophet.

Personally I believe the "birth" of Christianity has more to do with the oppression of individuals by the  Roman Empire than anything else.

 

on Jan 22, 2012

An atheist is a person without a belief in God. It is not logical to assume that I hate or would even try to disprove god … I simply don’t believe in his existence. The atheist conflict is completely RCC (Christianity) related and self-inflicted as is almost always the case. It seems atheist wasn’t even a common word until the 18th century when the first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" lived anyway, a bit after the fact, go figure. So don’t take this nonsense back to the roots of Christianity because it wasn’t a thought then. There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting though that most disagreement comes from theists NOT atheists who themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different. It could easily be argued that “Jewish’ should be defined by the Jews … and that atheism should be defined by the atheists … not so in the world of Christians where their ‘illogical beliefs’ are used to try and trump logic, common sense and proof from the sciences.

My dictionary: Atheism: disbelief in the existence of God or deities.

Wikipedia: Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities

Dictionary.reference.com: 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2. Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. Origin: 1580–90

CatholicReference.net: ATHEISM; Denial of a personal God who is totally distinct from the world he created. Modern atheism has become so varied and widespread that the Second Vatican Council identified no less than eight forms of disbelief under the single term atheismus: "Some people expressly deny the existence of God. Others maintain that man cannot make any assertion whatsoever about Him. Still others admit only such methods of investigation as would make it seem quite meaningless to ask questions about God. Many, trespassing beyond the boundaries of the positive sciences, either contend that everything can be explained by the reasoning process used in such sciences, or, on the contrary, hold that there is no such thing as absolute truth. With others it is their exaggerated idea of man that causes their faith to languish; they are more prone, it would seem, to affirm man than to deny God. Yet others have such a faulty notion of God that when they disown this product of the imagination their denial has no reference to the God of the Gospels. There are also those who never enquire about God; religion never seems to trouble or interest them at all, nor do they try to see why they should bother about it" (Church in the Modern World, I, 19). In the light of this array of infidelity, it was only logical for the council to declare that atheism is one of the greatest problems facing mankind in the world today. (Etym. Greek atheos, denying the gods, without a god.)    [Right up there with homosexuality surely, hahaha]

There should be no misconception where this problem comes from here … it is just the rejection of, our refusal to comply with RCCC? Therein lays the roots of most of the world’s religious and secular bigotries … the Bible/Koran/Whatever.

on Jan 22, 2012

An atheist is a person without a belief in God

I think a more accurate statement here would be:

"An atheist is a person who assumes the impossibility of the existence of a being knowable as a God."

I don't believe in Bigfoot but concede he just might exist.

on Jan 22, 2012

Sinperium
"An atheist is a person who assumes the impossibility of the existence of a being knowable as a God."

You're really going into the semantics here. Most atheists will conclude it might just be possible, if extremely unlikely, that there is a god. Now we may say certain religious ideas or stories are impossible, but I don't think we will ever learn enough about the universe to disprove the Deist god for example. But of course we don't believe in one, and won't until, like bigfoot, it can be proved.

on Jan 22, 2012

Sinperium
I don't believe in Bigfoot but concede he just might exist.
Sorry, but I do not believe in either and have seen no evidence to make me think otherwise. Without some such evidence, I don't see why I should be overly interested in either discussion. Speaking for myself then (if I cannot speak for most atheists), anything above and beyond this … I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD (S) … has nothing to do with me … because it has been added by that very same element … my self-professed-enemy who would also guide my very path for me … and that is pure adulterated foolishness.

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