Constructive gadfly
Published on September 15, 2007 By stevendedalus In Politics

Why do “you people” on the right seem most of the time when arguing the current war to reference ancient history—WWII, Korea and Vietnam—to justify staying the course in Iraq?

It goes without saying that troops still in Germany and Okinawa that had been there to protect the West from Soviet menace in Eastern Europe, and from China and Soviet designs on the Pacific rim, but now no longer serve a useful purpose and should be withdrawn but for those as a contingency of NATO inasmuch as the threat of another colossal skirmish, but for the cries of warmongers, has diminished—even the vast Pacific fleet at full strength has outlived its usefulness. These troops would be better honored by enforcing our borders or some to assist in Afghanistan.

We are stuck in Korea because the US seems ill-equipped or unwilling to negotiate through the truce toward unification and eventual draw down of US troops. We have no leaders to say, “Kim-Jong Il, tear out the barbed wire.” The “lost” cause in Vietnam attributed to “if only we had stayed a little longer” is sheer nonsense. Those Viet crazies, had all the time, driven by centuries of culture, to wear us down—as they did the French.

The same applies to Iraq because we let the crazies out of the bag, the Shia, and having no leanings toward democracy, to wreak their revenge and come hell or highwater establish a theocratic regime. To carry out a potent surge we would have to forge a reign of terror, almost as brutal as Saddam’s, across the hapless country. We don’t have the troops for that, and such tactics would further tarnish our already tarnished image, let alone the excruciatingly rise in casualties on both sides.

It is time to stop wasting our resources—human and matériel—and turn away from the Calamity Janes who are privy to Clytemnestra’s voice of doom that if we withdraw there will be total annihilation, which is unlikely; at worst there will be three partitions sniping at each other. Despite Bush, McCain, Petraeus the chaos has been with us and more in the shadows whether we stay or leave.

To honor our troops bring them home for they gallantly did all they could for a people glaringly unappreciative.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Sep 18, 2007
Sad Sad choices, thanks to our Idiot-in-chief.
Sadly true.
on Sep 18, 2007

Why is it that the left tends to think history started last month?

on Sep 18, 2007


If we, all of us Ameicans, to honestly discuss this war we should start by asking the following question:

let's forget about the phony reasons that we were given as a reason for this war.Also let's forget all of the reasons that were introduced to justify this war after the original ones proved false.



Interesting so in your mind the best way for Americans to begin "honestly" discussing this war is by ignoring all the lies, deceptions and propaganda that got US into this war in the first place.

In other words "forget the history". I wonder if that would have worked for the Holocaust?

In trying to answer this question let's all keep in mind few facts about Iraq and the Irqis:


Facts eh??

FACT # 1: its in the Iraqi DNA that they are are a nation of hypocrites.

Where is this FACT taken from? Isn't that how klan meetings begin.... by denouncing other races as being genetically inferior?

And who exactly do you mean by They?? Some Iraqis kill an Imam and some other Iraqis mourn the loss. Two separate groups of Iraqis committing 2 different and opposing acts and this makes all Iraqis hypocrites? Didn't we whack Martin Luther at some point.... and JFK?? And then prompty ball our eyes out about it, in fact we still commemorate the daze dont we?

We must be using 2 completely different dictionaries here TA because what yours' defines as FACT mine defines as UTTER BULLSHIT.
on Sep 19, 2007
Why is it that the left tends to think history started last month?
Not really, it's just that war blunders are easily forgotten over time and usually justified by some romantic achievement. Now the blunders are up close and there are so many that it clouds the achievements.
on Sep 19, 2007
Interesting so in your mind the best way for Americans to begin "honestly" discussing this war is by ignoring all the lies, deceptions and propaganda that got US into this war in the first place.


Absolutely not. I didnt say we should forget that in the sense you understood it. I agree with all what you said. However, it does us no good now to talk about it. it is too little too late for that. I am against this foolish adventure from the start but now we are stuck there, and the question was when can we get out. All i wanted to show is that the answer is: NOW ... or Never in the forseeable future.

Where is this FACT taken from? Isn't that how klan meetings begin.... by denouncing other races as being genetically inferior?


I wish it was. at least it would have been a foolish judgement from a bigot. Unfortunately, that is far far from the truth. This fact is based on the history of Iraq and the Iraqis. As i said earier, it pains me greatly to say that. I have a deep respect and appreciation for the people and the culture of that regions. But the Iraqis have a unique love for revenge. They themselves know and say that. I can assure you of one thing: It is not in my nature or way of thinking to be a bigot regardless of the reason or the issue. But sadly, i cant ignore the history and the reality. I wish i can. Describing them as hypocrites is not mine by the way. That is how they were addressed by their own leader at the time of that terrible episode in their history (that is about 1300+ yrs ago). He addressed them thus: "Oh people of Iraq, Oh people of hypocrisy" (the statement rhymes poetically in arabic. Hypocrisy means 'nefaq' in Arabic).

And who exactly do you mean by They?? Some Iraqis kill an Imam and some other Iraqis mourn the loss. Two separate groups of Iraqis committing 2 different and opposing acts and this makes all Iraqis hypocrites? Didn't we whack Martin Luther at some point.... and JFK?? And then prompty ball our eyes out about it, in fact we still commemorate the daze dont we?


Again, i wish it was like that. They, all iraqis, supported him then rebelled against him and refused to protect him when he refused to do what they wanted him to do which was to declare war against other muslims who didnt support him. he wanted to negotiate but they wanted war.

It is a long and sad period in Islamic history and it all started from the moment they allowed his assassination.

I can assure you that I wish they get their act together and not betray each other. Remember that Chalabi and his group and other exiled iraqis painted a rosy picture for our idiot-in-chief and encourages him to invade THEIR OWN country in the belief that the US will just go there, take Saddam out then hand them a free country. How idiotic is that? instead of staying in their country and fight the dictator, they wanted someone else (us, our own US citizens)to fight and die for their own freedom. The point is this: All of the Shia supported the invasion, then what are they doing now? killing the invaders. you want more proof of their hypocrisy? Dont you see the pattern here? they supported the USA and when the USA refused to do what they want (i.e. give them full control without sunnis involvement), they turned against it. ...it is amazing how history repeats itself.





on Sep 20, 2007
Absolutely not. I didnt say we should forget that in the sense you understood it. I agree with all what you said. However, it does us no good now to talk about it. it is too little too late for that


No what you said was:

let's forget about the phony reasons that we were given as a reason for this war.Also let's forget all of the reasons that were introduced to justify this war after the original ones proved false. Let's start over and ask this: What exactly are we trying to achieve there?.


You suggest we forget about the lies and propaganda that got us into this war in the same breath as you ask what exactly are we trying to achieve there??? I dont know about you but to me the lies and propaganda are an excellent indicator of what the people driving this war are trying to achieve.

How you think we could ever possibly hope to forget such motivations, wipe the slate clean and start fresh, when not only have they created the present but that they continue to steer our future is completely beyond me. It strikes me as being an incredibly naive proposition.

But sadly, i cant ignore the history and the reality. I wish i can.


Oh but you do. Shall we trot through the history of mankind and compare Iraqi behaviours and political assassinations to that of mankind in general. You attempt to attribute behaviours and acts that are common across all races and times to a single race of people and then go a step further to suggest its due to some genetic difficiency.

Describing them as hypocrites is not mine by the way.


Of course it is. You clearly agree with the statement and not only that you take it a step further by making into a genetic defect.

you want more proof of their hypocrisy?


MORE?? You've yet to provide ANY proof to support your claim that Iraqis are MORE genetically predisposed to being hypocritical in nature than the average human of any race. The only reason i can think of why someone would wish to claim such a thing is to make themselves feel superior and perhaps absolve themselves of any guilt or shame they may be feeling over the way this country has conducted itself over the last few years.

The Iraqis are not genetically inferior to US, they're not children and they dont need anything from US other than for US to stay out of their affairs. The fact is we need what they have: OIL. And this war is about nothing other than the control and distribution of Iraqi OIL. Nothing more. Nothing less.

For someone supposedly so concerned about how we move forward from this mess you dont seem to have a grasp on the basic mechanics of it. Rather than recognise some ugly truths you instead prefer to point to political actions some 1300 years old.
You use this as evidence that the major impedament to resolving this conflict, is not US imperialist ambitions and motivations but rather the major impediment is the the need for US to work with a country teeming with peoples of an inferior bloodline.

And you then have the audacity to suggest that you some great love for the people and cultures of the region?
on Sep 21, 2007
You use this as evidence that the major impedament to resolving this conflict, is not US imperialist ambitions and motivations but rather the major impediment is the the need for US to work with a country teeming with peoples of an inferior bloodline.


I can assure you that you are mistaken in your understanding of what i said. I am not saying we are superior to them or to anyone. I also recognize our foolish policies when it comes to that region. I dont think we disagree on that.

Where we disagree on is to concentrate on what to do now. What good is it,NOW, to rehash the tragedy that we started?

As for the Iraqis, i never said they are not capable of anything or they are less than us or anyone else. However, they have different mentality among the the people of the region. may be saying in their DNA gave you the impression that i think they are inferior. That is not what i meant, what i meant was that by nature they have a violent attitudes in dealing with each other. may be it is a cultural thing but this is really true in all their history. even the recent one.

I dont know how much you know about their recent history that ended with Saddam. here is a brief glimpse of it. Check it out if you like anywhere you wish. The following is a recorded history and known to anyone who studied the area:

In 1958 they revolted against their king, Faisal (installed by Britain of course after WWII). they killed him and his prime minister (Nuri Al-Said) and dragged their bodies in the streets. The leader of that coup was Abdel Karim Kassim.

Few years later, they did the same to Kassim. they killed him and dragged his body in the streets. (they call that Sahl). The leader of that was Abdel Salam Aref.

Few years later Aref was dealt the same hand. Killed . I dont know if they dragged his body or not. His Brother Abdel Rahman Aref took over

Few years later, this second Aref and all his cabinet ministers were blown in the air. Saddam did that. And the rest we all know.

In all the countries around them, all deposed leaders were exiled ALIVE and were allowed to get out with most of their wealth. That includes, Egypt (King Farouk), Iran (Shah) Libya (King Edrees Sonossi), Morocco, Tunis, and Algeria (Ben Bella died at home i think). no one killed and mutilated the bodies of their deposed leaders except the Iraqis. Just in case you think i am biased against Iraqis, i should mention that assassination is not a rare thing in that area (Sadat of Egypt and Abdullah of Jordon and the assassinations in Lebanon are few of that) but the Iraqis have as many as the rest put together.

Now, if i tell you that is also what the Iraqis did with the bodies of Hassan and Hussain (the sons of Imam Ali) are you going to say i am biased against them?

I am not biased against anyone. But how do you explain what i just listed? is it their nature? is that the same as saying it is DNA? i dont know. May be it is none of that. but that is what they always do.

Again, i think we drifted from the main point which was: what is the appropriate time frame for the USA to get out. I think it is obvious that Now is the answer since anything else is not going to achieve anything in the forseeable future.


on Sep 22, 2007
As a Muslim themself. Sunni, aren't you, TA?


Yes i am. But that is not the problem with Iraqis, Iran are all Shia but they dont behave the same way. Iraq's Sunnis are not excluded from anything i said about Iraq. Both Sunnis and Shia of iraq have the same nature. remember, all those assassinated leaders i listed were sunnis and were assassinated and dragged in the streets by sunnis.
on Sep 24, 2007
History started last month for the left, because if they looked any further back they would've seen that everything they want to try to improve America was already tried and failed.
on Sep 26, 2007
That doesn't give you the right to speak for all Iraqis, or Sunnis, or anyone else


Did i say i speak for any of them? i speak for myself and never said i speak for any one or any group. if you dont agree with me that is fine, but what i am talking about is what i see. and i am sure you and others see what i see too. it is just you/others and I differ on how to understand it and how to deal with it.

You making it as if i am saying that about Iraq because I am a sunni, while i said Iran is not sunni but they dont behave like Iraqis and most other countries in the area are sunnis, still they dont act like Iraqis. It has nothing to do with sunni or shia. It is Iraq and Iraqis.

GWB picked the worst spot in the area for his tragic adventure, and all i am saying is this: it is the worst spot because of the nature of Iraq itself. Staying there to achieve anything of what GWB dreams of is a utopian pipe dream in my opinion.
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